Cost/Benefit for Castle types

[baruk]

Talking of waltzing into the "ghost riders are overpowered" holy war...

NTJedi said:
Ghost Riders is overpowered:
Lots of FAST longdead horsemen(speed is what's really huge)
The wraithlord leader(I've seen this fella win provinces in long battles even tho his horsemen died long ago.)
Only 5 DeathGems ! (most Patrolling groups with province defense won't survive a double casting)

In what context is ghost riders overpowered? You have only taken into account gem cost, and their ability to smash average province defences. In this ability, they are rightly overpowered.
The important, balancing costs are the requirements for conjuration research level 9 and death 4.

NTJedi said:

Any of these suggestions for making the spell more balanced would be great:

I beg to differ.

NTJedi said:
1) Switch the wraithlord with a mummy

Which self-respecting horde of undead horseman would ever lower themselves to following a shambling, stumbling pile of bandages?
Sorry, has to be a wraithlord. Wraithlords are COOL.

NTJedi said:
2) Increase the cost of gems from 5 to 8

Nope. 5 gems is just right. If anything, the costs of level 9 magic should be lowered. How about 10 gems for flames from the sky? 10 gem iron dragons, perhaps?
The point is, level 9 magic is cheap, good and effective for a reason, and it should stay that way.

NTJedi said:
3) Place a chance of failure or chance the spell hits some other random province

Hey, these aren't a bunch of undead amateurs we're talking about here, like those lousy pirates. The (undead) mounties always get their man.

[NTJedi]

baruk said:
You have only taken into account gem cost, and their ability to smash average province defences.

They smash way more than average province defense! Even the mighty Jotun province defense at 20 would be crushed with one casting. On a map with 400+ provinces the only protection from this spell is having strong armies way in the back, building castles or labs with magic domes.

The important, balancing costs are the requirements for conjuration research level 9 and death 4.

Death 4 is not hard for most nations since items can provide the boost needed. And yes it's Conjuration_9... but it's sad when everyone resorts to building cheap castle-types otherwise losing several temples each turn.

Which self-respecting horde of undead horseman would ever lower themselves to following a shambling, stumbling pile of bandages?

Mummy's are commonly known as Kings or HighPriests which died... how much more respect do you need ! Also you obviously did not notice that undead horsemen are MINDLESS. The ghost of a frog could be the leader and they wouldn't care as long as it had enough undead leadership.

Nope. 5 gems is just right. If anything, the costs of level 9 magic should be lowered.

No other target summoning attacks provide so many fearless targets on any terrain and none even match the damage done by this spell per gem cost. DO SOME TESTING and you'll see.

Hey, these aren't a bunch of undead amateurs we're talking about here, like those lousy pirates. The (undead) mounties always get their man.

There's reasons many have banned this spell and have started the so called holy war against it. First... for those which do single player... the computer AI does not cast this spell which provides an unfair advantage. Second... gamers have few choices in stopping the damage this spell can do and thus resort to mass castling. Third... the leader by itself is worth 5 death gems. Fourth... lots of fearless undead horsemen on any province.


----------
Review:
There should not be one spell which provides such great power at such cheap cost especially when the computer AI does not use it.

[Saber Cherry]

NTJedi said:Third... the leader by itself is worth 5 death gems.

Or about 40, depending on how you look at it. Of course, immortality is useless on something that vanishes (and is cast deep into hostile territory), though I can think of several ways to abuse the awesome-commander-for-5-gems that are even better than just grabbing 20 provinces in a turn for the price of 100 gems.

You know, a combined Horde from Hell and Ghost Riders in the same province at the same time would be even more difficult to defend against than casting either one twice, though usually either one alone gets the job done.

[Huzurdaddi]

Saber Cherry said:

Or about 40, depending on how you look at it.

Well they are not the same as wraith lords. They don't have the 3D which makes a huge difference . They also don't have the baneblade which is a nice perk. The ghost rider leader is on a horse however which gives the perks of 1 point of defence and a hoof attack at the price of no foot slots.

Anyway ghost riders can be very powerful. Ghost riders slaughters PD, it can kill almost any lone SC ( there are a few that can kill unlimited Ghost riders but they are few ), and it can kill many conventional armies that are unprepared. I think D5 or D6 is a fine requirement. It substantially increases the investment.

[Etaoin Shrdlu]

Answering the last two posts here...
Saber: you mean the "have an ally splash a GR onto your Charm Offensive province where your Nature mages mind-control the attackers" stunt? ( ooo how nasty my mind gets these days!)
Huzur: Very good point on the requirement to cast. Any Lamia Queen can forge items to boost herself to D4 (and if that's as far as she can go, she can instead either get to N5 or is eligible for a Ring of Sorcery.. and can now forge her way to D5). Only one in 16 can quickly get to D6 (but with the right timing, she could ring up the Scepter of Dark Regency and hel-llloooo D8!)
And hasn't this discussion gotten off the original point? Although if the reason no-one takes the other castle types is because of GR and nothing else, then maybe it hasn't....
Hoping the Watch Tower isn't the supply crawler of the Alpha Centauri series-- the "use it or you lose" item-- because an otherwise so balanced game shouldn't have a thing that, if the other guy's using it and you're not, you've already lost. (Unless you destroy him before he gets to the easy killer sequence...)

[Saber Cherry]

Etaoin Shrdlu said:
Saber: you mean the "have an ally splash a GR onto your Charm Offensive province where your Nature mages mind-control the attackers" stunt? ( ooo how nasty my mind gets these days!)

Shhh!

[Tuidjy]

Etaoin Shrdlu said:
Saber: you mean the "have an ally splash a GR onto your Charm Offensive province where your Nature mages mind-control the attackers" stunt? ( ooo how nasty my mind gets these days!)

Except that it does not work. You cannot capture (Enslave, Charm, Hellbind)
special monsters and province defense. Standard indies and player troops are
fair game. It can be done with other summons (Angelic host, Call of the W-)
but it takes quite the ally to go for something like this.

Huzur: Very good point on the requirement to cast. Any Lamia Queen can forge items to boost herself to D4 (and if that's as far as she can go, she can instead either get to N5 or is eligible for a Ring of Sorcery.. and can now forge her way to D5). Only one in 16 can quickly get to D6 (but with the right timing, she could ring up the Scepter of Dark Regency and hel-llloooo D8!)
And hasn't this discussion gotten off the original point? Although if the reason no-one takes the other castle types is because of GR and nothing else, then maybe it hasn't....

This is where you guys (do I get points for using 'guys' instead of an insult?)
go wrong. Ghost riders is only one of the many, many ways of laying waste to
an undefended province. Speaking for myself, it is my least favorite one,
together with the other 'annonymous' raiders. Yes, I do use it, but only when
I cannot send a squad that will actually TAKE the province, or when I have a
scout nearby AND gems to invest in an instant castle. As for anyone even
suggesting that Ghost Riders have an use against anything but undefended
provinces, I have one word: 'Play people with a clue, you may learn something'.
The last time Ghost riders have damaged any squad of mine was in the first game
I saw them. I was playing Ulm in that game, so you should be able to figure
out how long ago that was :-)

And yes, I am aware of the trick of making the opponent waste gems by casting
ghost riders. There are three ways of countering that (that I know of) and
one of them is pretty much part of my SOP.

Hoping the Watch Tower isn't the supply crawler of the Alpha Centauri series-- the "use it or you lose" item

In my opinion, not even close. The crawler had no disadvantages and one had to
be mad not to use it (especially since you are able to produce it at a minor
base and then reassign it to a major one, airshipped/maglifted both ways)

The watchtower has a few major disadvantages, but the people who whine about them
have never tried to play with one. Low income, extremely hard to produce a
conquering army, let alone a second, no supplies to speak of and low defense
that does matter in the early game. The reason I take a watchtower as
opposed to a castle is not the construction cost or build time. It is the
eighty design points. But the time I start fortifying non-essensial provinces,
money is meaningless.

-- because an otherwise so balanced game shouldn't have a thing that, if the other guy's using it and you're not, you've already lost.

Of course, a well-balanced game does not have ONE thing like that. A well
balanced game has a dozen things like that. I have posted this challenge
before, I it is still standing. I am ready to play 1x1 with any whinner, and
he gets to forbid me from using one additional 'exploit' every game. The
idea is to see how many games it would take him to win.

My point is that if you fail to expand early, search for sites, research quickly,
develop highly mobile defenses, hoard at least one ressource, fortify every
important province, build a strong domain, avoid an early all-against-you
alliance, secure a few good globals, or at least prevent the enemy from doing
so... you are unlikely to win. In a smaller game, you can get away with only
a few of these, but if you plan to win a 150+ province game, you have to do
most of the above.

(Unless you destroy him before he gets to the easy killer sequence...)

And what may that be? How comes I have never encountered anything that comes
close to being an 'easy killer'? Hell, I learned my latest new trick from
a game I was not even in. I fully intend to smurf a game and tailor my
development towards chain casting Armaggeddon after making sure that my
important units can take it. But even that is far from being an 'easy killer'.

[FrankTrollman]

I'm really fond of the Wizard Tower. At 120 pts., it's nothing like cheap, but an admin of 30 on a castle that springs up in 2 turns is no joke.

Also, the Mausoleum is really good. Only 40 design pts. and you get an Admin of 20. That's not bad.

In general, I think the Watchtower is one of the weaker options. Both of the other 300 gold/2t castles are better. You pay for that, and you don't always have the points to spend. But if you do, those castles are rather obviously worth it.

-Frank