Recruitable Unit Rebalance Version 7.51 Released.

[Saber Cherry]

Huzurdaddi said:

Did someone finally abuse the crap out of them in your test games? I'll be honest I did try a test game with them as soon as you made them and I was able to clear the map at a pretty silly rate

As for celestial masters, I really like the little mod I made for them ( of course! ) where I chanhed the cost to be in line with Scott's formula and where I gave t'ien Ch'i 50 gold 1S casters to act as communicants and magic duel sponges. Worked *very* nicely.

Wellll... longbows have not been particularly abused in the test game (Man is ranked about 3 or 4), but I played around with them a bit, and found them exceptionally strong. That, combined with comments in the test game thread and this thread, made me think that 9AP, 40 range, at 12 gold is unbalanacing. At 13 gold, they come closer to parity with cheap xbows. 13g is not a final solution, more like a patch to make them less "uber" while pondering a final solution

Fortunately, only Man - a somewhat weak nation, due to capitol-only troops and mages - has the ability to abuse longbows, since they natively only occur on grasslands (as far as I can tell). So it's not a very important issue, especially once storm, Staff of Storms, and Arrow Fend come into play. However, I want to rectify it by v8, and I'm considering a poll on the ideal cost and damage of longbows. Especially considering that the scientific data presented in this thread portrays them as being substantially weaker than most crossbows.

[Huzurdaddi]

Wellll... longbows have not been particularly abused in the test game (Man is ranked about 3 or 4), but I played around with them a bit, and found them exceptionally strong. That, combined with comments in the test game thread and this thread, made me think that 9AP, 40 range, at 12 gold is unbalanacing. At 13 gold, they come closer to parity with cheap xbows. 13g is not a final solution, more like a patch to make them less "uber" while pondering a final solution

Well I've felt for quite a while that crossbowmen are the most cost efficient non-sacred troops in the game. So I'm not sure using them as a balance point is super.

OTOH I do find the new longbowmen fun to use I know I ( personally ) would break even if I was in heavy armor if a bunch of guys were shooting arrows at me!

How did you addition of the flail attribue to the lowbowmen work? Were they useful units? They would probably no longer break HC but they would be pretty decent against infanty.

[Saber Cherry]

Huzurdaddi said:
Well I've felt for quite a while that crossbowmen are the most cost efficient non-sacred troops in the game. So I'm not sure using them as a balance point is super.

OTOH I do find the new longbowmen fun to use I know I ( personally ) would break even if I was in heavy armor if a bunch of guys were shooting arrows at me!

How did you addition of the flail attribue to the lowbowmen work? Were they useful units? They would probably no longer break HC but they would be pretty decent against infanty.

I won a game recently, Marignon (me) versus Machaka, fielding almost nothing but crossbows and Witch Hunters, and without using flaming arrows or wind guide. So you may be right about that. On the other hand, I rarely see other people use them unless they are playing Marignon. And they're essential as a last defense against SCs, as far as I can tell.

#Flail works for missile weapons. I tried it out on AP longbows, and they annihilated indies instantly. Not a good modding change I did not try 14 non-AP plus #flail, but it would probably be similar versus medium infantry, though less effective on heavy cavs. Regardless, I see no reason why longbows should hurt people if they hit the shield. Arbalests, maybe... boulders, Jotun javelins, and castle ballistae, probably. And I plan to make those changes, after testing to see if boulders already ignore shields.

Anyone have any opinions on changing Arbalest to 11ap or 12ap + ignore shield? That would make it more useful against most enemies, and less lethal to Ulmians. In other words, people might recruit them instead of Sappers...

Well, I'll start a poll on longbows and crossbows tomorrow

[Sandman]

Nice mod. I don't agree with everything (I've always liked Jotun Woodsmen), but it's a really impressive effort all the same.

Some suggestions/points:

The Lord Warden: At 130 gold, this unit is absurdly expensive. He's a good fighter and an OK commander, but not nearly enough to justify the cost. The Warden is already a rather pricey sacred unit (Tuatha are cheaper and better) and there's no justification for having a commander version which costs more than 3X the price of the basic unit. He might well be the most expensive infantry commander in the game. Hell, 130 gold will buy you an top of the range cavalry leader.

The Mother of Avalon is the same price, has the same leadership, is also sacred and stealthy and is a mid-level mage. She's also a much more useful addition to a stealth force.

T'ien Chi Light Cavalry: It's always bothered me that these guys don't have a hoof attack. Granted, they might not be riding trained warhorses, but I like to think of hooves as an intrinsic mounted bonus. Maybe a lesser hoof attack for light cav, versus a warhorse hoof for the heavy cavalries.

Conquerors of the Sea: The mages are priced fairly for this theme, IMO. However, the sailing commanders are dreadfully overpriced; 75 or 100 gold for a commander with rubbish equipment, average stats, and ok leadership? Granted, they have the sailing skill, but Vanheim gets that for nothing. Compare an admiral (100 gold) to a Vanherse (160 gold). The admiral has better leadership, but the Vanherse is vastly superior in every other way, including upkeep!

[Saber Cherry]

Sandman said:
Nice mod. I don't agree with everything (I've always liked Jotun Woodsmen), but it's a really impressive effort all the same.

Thanks for the suggestions! I've never played Conquerers of the Seas

With regards to Woodsmen, when and how do you use them? Even with Nature-9 / Earth-4 I prefer other Jotun infantry... and for stealth armies, Vaettir are at least as good as unblessed Woodsmen, IMO. I'm really starting to think giving Woodsman commanders 10 leadership and Holy-2 would be ideal, because even having dropped Woodsman units to 45 gold, I still can't think of a use for them...

Code:

---

200 gold, 54 res, 4 holy of Woodsmen versus 200 gold, 150 res of Vaettir:



'4*JO Woodsman' versus '25*JO Vaetti'  in 40000 bouts.



 ~ Attacker's Deathmatch Statistics ~



Score: ----------------------   82

Wins: -----------------------     .00%

Losses: ---------------------  100.00%

Kills per battle: -----------    4.13

Kills per round: ------------    1.46

Deaths per battle: ----------    4.00

Life expectancy (rounds): ---    2.35

Life expectancy (battles): --     .83

Avg. Rounds Elapsed: --------    2.85

Avg. Rounds to Win: ---------     .00

Avg. Rounds to Lose: --------    2.85

Hit Rate: -------------------   56.41%

Evade Rate: -----------------   32.94%

Damage done per swing: ------   12.41

Damage done per hit: --------   22.00

Damage taken per hit: -------    4.00

Total damage taken per life:    35.79

---

[Saber Cherry]

Big Daddy: Thanks for the additional information about projectiles! Although, some of the stuff about slings is pretty hard to believe. Where did you find the information; do you remember? And by the way, I know very little about slings, though in RPGs they tend to differentiate between "staff slings" and "normal slings." Do you know which were being described, or if the difference is an artificial one invented in the 20th century?

[Sandman]

With regards to Woodsmen, when and how do you use them?

With a water-9 bless and sloth scales. This turns their light equipment into a bonus, since they can be produced for few resources, and they get less fatigue. Quickened, they'll always strike first with enormous force, obliterating most indies. They can be used for flanking as well.

Despite it being the percieved wisdom, I've never really been tempted by a nature bless for them. Possibly because the Son of Niefel is so cool.

They're less useful as the game goes on, but the water bless stays handy forever, pumping up the Jotun Herses and with battle shrouds, boosting the Gygjas as well.

[Saber Cherry]

Arralen: Thanks for the research and the picture! The link is really well done, too.

Sandman: I'll have to try that sometime. As far as Gygjas go, don't you think it's odd that the Vaettir descriptions refer to them as sacred, and yet they are not sacred?

And also - I'm playing Jotunheim right now, and can't find a good use for Gygjas or Skrattis (though I have many vaetti hags, and uses for all of them). Both of them are very expensive to build and hope for good randoms (like 2 death). What do you do with Gygjas? Cast Crossbreeding?