best weapons on WP's

Mad_Lear · #1 August 21st, 2001, 07:22 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Oggy ben Doggy:
I haven't tried this, but one way to avoid the dance might be to use tractor beams in a large enough mount.

Unless your playing with a mod which increases WP weapons range alot, I don't think this would work. Tractor beams have an infuriatingly short range

Baron Munchausen · #2 August 21st, 2001, 11:03 PM

Planets are terribly vulnerable because they are immobile. WPs need long range weapons, at least in games against humans. The AI is usually stupid enough to charge right in and take on a planet at close range. And yes, the PDC is absolutely vital to protect a planet. The surest way to destroy most planets is to just sit at the edge of missile range and fire away until the WPs are destroyed. If the planet has enough PDCs to counter the missile capacity of the attacking fleet then there is no option but to approach within direct-fire weapon and and risk losses. With mounts for WPs equivalent to mountsfor bases, that is very expensive.

I've also modded my AIs to use "High Energy Discharge Weapons" or the equivalent in special weapon platforms. These long-range weapons are even longer ranged with the WP mounts and absolutely devastating. Sometimes a ship can be gutted by a single hit.

The tractor/repulsor beams are an interesting weapon choice for a planetary defence. With ships, the size class of the ship determines what it can move. Does a WP get compared to the size of the ship it is trying to move or does the planet count as the firing 'vehicle' and any size ship can be moved? If the latter is the case then this has some real potential for defense. You could fling ships half-way across the map and break up the attacking fleet, or pull in one at a time from extreme range into close range where you could smash it.

geoschmo · #3 August 21st, 2001, 11:22 PM

I know this is pushing the thread a bit off topic. But IMHO WP's should have mounts better than those available to ships and bases. If you think about it, what's the limitation in a weapon on the surface. There really shouldn't be.

One thing in SE that is a little too easy is glassing planets. Yes hitting the planet should be very easy, but it should take a LARGE fleet, or at least a small fleet a long time to totally obliterate the population on a planet.

I would be in favor of strengthening planetary defenses considerably. An easy way to do this is through mounts for warp points. With equal tech levels in weaponry, the Weapon plantform should have an advantage in range and damage over ships that are attacking. This would compensate for the lack of mobility, and the huge differance in chance to hit.

I know it would be easy to mod in, but I think it should be a change from MM for game balance.

I would also like to see a "Warp point only" Point defense cannon that is available earlier than the PDC we have now for ships. In a low tech start you have missles right off the bat. If you find your enemies home before he has a chance to research PDC, he's toast. A couple of frigates with CSM I's can finish him off in a couple turns.

Geoschmo

Baron Munchausen · #4 August 21st, 2001, 11:36 PM

quote:
Originally posted by geoschmo:
I know this is pushing the thread a bit off topic. But IMHO WP's should have mounts better than those available to ships and bases. If you think about it, what's the limitation in a weapon on the surface. There really shouldn't be.

One thing in SE that is a little too easy is glassing planets. Yes hitting the planet should be very easy, but it should take a LARGE fleet, or at least a small fleet a long time to totally obliterate the population on a planet.

I would be in favor of strengthening planetary defenses considerably. An easy way to do this is through mounts for warp points. With equal tech levels in weaponry, the Weapon plantform should have an advantage in range and damage over ships that are attacking. This would compensate for the lack of mobility, and the huge differance in chance to hit.

I know it would be easy to mod in, but I think it should be a change from MM for game balance.

I would also like to see a "Warp point only" Point defense cannon that is available earlier than the PDC we have now for ships. In a low tech start you have missles right off the bat. If you find your enemies home before he has a chance to research PDC, he's toast. A couple of frigates with CSM I's can finish him off in a couple turns.

Geoschmo

'Warp Point Mounts'??? Multi-tasking a bit too much?

But yes, I've given WPs in my game better mounts than bases. The range/damage bonuses are the same but the size increase is less so you can cram more firepower into a WP pound for pound (uh, kt for kt?) than any other vehicle. I've also got "Bulk Armor" for WPs only that stands in for massive earthworks/concrete type fortification. 8 to 1 damage ratio, better than anything but Crystalline armor. If only the AI were smart enough to use it. :-/

This is the real problem, you know. There's no way to tell the AI how many WPs or what sort of WPs to build and where to put them. Why can't you tell it that a "Military Installation" needs more WP defenses than a mere mining colony?

A "defense profile" for each colony type like there is a "construction profile" would be very nice.

Oh, I've changed my starting techs so that PDC level 1 is available at the 'medium' start level. That's usually how I start a game. Max tech is no fun, low tech is too tedious in the first few years of play.

[This message has been edited by Baron Munchausen (edited 21 August 2001).]

Q · #5 August 22nd, 2001, 10:51 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Phoenix-D:
Q, how is your enemy ever going to do the "dance"? I've only seen the AI do it a few times, and unless you're playing hot seat, that's the only way to do it. Email and PBW- no tactical, so you have to rely on the AI anyway. And when it DID "dance", it spent a turn in weapons range firing before it moved back out.

Phoenix-D

You are right in e-mail and PBW games this is not possible. But even there, if you stay with your ships at maximum weapons range you have a big advantage, because the chance to hit a planet is much greater than to hit a ship (unless the race on the planet has a religious talisman).
On the other hand if you give weapon platforms mounts as potent or better than for bases, will you use bases for defense at all?? You have to pay maintenance for bases and they can be located at the wrong side of the planet if the enemy attacks. So I think base mounts should be better than weapon platform mounts. But that's just my opinion.

mac5732 · #6 August 22nd, 2001, 05:03 PM

Range is definitly the problem for wp's. I agree wp's should have increased range with the various mounts, but a good point was would this elimiate bases? (my opinion), I don't think so. There are a lot of planets where you can only use between 1-4 wp's unless you increase cargo on planet. Maybe increase the toughness of the WP's, make them harder to kill. If you put these new massive wp's on planet, this would leave your bases free for extensive PD's or closer type weapons. Or Make the new mounts only effective at extended range and impotent at close range, this would force you to put other type weapons on the wp's as well. Say certain mounts (only for WP'S Have range of say 16-18 but nothing or little effect at say 5-10 or something similiar.

just some ideas mac

Suicide Junkie · #7 August 22nd, 2001, 07:25 PM

quote:
Or Make the new mounts only effective at extended range and impotent at close range,

Range-bonus-mounted weapons have their range 1 damage repeated, and since the damage at range 1 is always the highest damage any (unmodded) weapon does, ER mounts will be good at close range.

Although, you can look at it another way; P&N has a sattelite "Siege" mount, which boosts range, but reduces firepower.
So, if you want to reach out and touch someone, you need the siege mount.
Close in, large mounts are twice as powerful.

That makes the ER mount good at long range, and bad at close range, though not really

.