Recruitable Unit Rebalance Version 7.51 Released.

[FrankTrollman]

BTW, if you really want a Soul Slay effect that only works once per battle, couldn't you just make an additional attack that had a very negative "#ratt" value? It could do zero damage and have an on-hit Soul Slay effect, and it would go off once per 50 turns or so, which means that he Valkyries would cough it up on the first round of combat and not afterwards.

-Frank

[Saber Cherry]

FrankTrollman said:
BTW, if you really want a Soul Slay effect that only works once per battle, couldn't you just make an additional attack that had a very negative "#ratt" value? It could do zero damage and have an on-hit Soul Slay effect, and it would go off once per 50 turns or so, which means that he Valkyries would cough it up on the first round of combat and not afterwards.

-Frank

Yes, that would sort of work. Thanks for the idea... I might try it.

[quantum_mechani]

One change I cannot understand is upping the cost of serpent priests to 200. The theme is already regarded almost universally as weaker than base, why make it worse?

[Saber Cherry]

quantum_mechani said:
One change I cannot understand is upping the cost of serpent priests to 200. The theme is already regarded almost universally as weaker than base, why make it worse?

Ummm... I guess, when pricing some units from special themes, I did not pay any attention to the "known wisdom" of the power of theme. Serpent Cult Pythium would actually be very strong on many maps if it could be combined with Water Cult, yielding powerful, amphibious, poison-immune, high-MR sacreds able to kill Atlantians (with their poison weapons) and Illithids (with an Astral blessing for additional MR). Illithids tend to be unable to kill things with high regeneration, regardless of MR.

But that's all beside the point. The reason is just that I re-priced Serpent Priests at 200 when I went on a holy-priest-mage price-boosting spree, since that approximately reflects their value outside of the context of their theme's weakness. Compare to a 140g Druid at 2H, 2N. 60g for +1W, +1? seems quite reasonable... or, starting with an 80g High Priest, 120g for +2N +1W +1? seems like a great deal, considering that it's all sacred... or starting with a Witch Hunter (already a great bargain) at 150g, and adding +1H and +1? for 50g (and changing the magic paths) also seems like a great deal.

However, there's also the fact that low-level Water and Nature magic are almost entirely worthless in most cases, which neither I nor Illwinter had really considered when pricing mages.

I still think 200g is a fair price for the unit, when obseved in a vacuum. But as you point out, the theme is pretty weak (especially considering that it takes Pythium from the (arguably) strongest magic nation to the (possibly) weakest). Do you think that giving Serpent Priests (another random *or* a linked random *or* 3N *or* 4H *or* 2W), and raising the price to 220~230, would make SC Pythium competitive? What about giving Acolytes a sorcery random, or replacing their 1N with a sorcery random (so they become like sacred holy Vaetti Hags)? As it stands, their mages can do little except pray for their sacred hydras...

[quantum_mechani]

Saber Cherry said:

Ummm... I guess, when pricing some units from special themes, I did not pay any attention to the "known wisdom" of the power of theme. Serpent Cult Pythium would actually be very strong on many maps if it could be combined with Water Cult, yielding powerful, amphibious, poison-immune, high-MR sacreds able to kill Atlantians (with their poison weapons) and Illithids (with an Astral blessing for additional MR). Illithids tend to be unable to kill things with high regeneration, regardless of MR.

But that's all beside the point. The reason is just that I re-priced Serpent Priests at 200 when I went on a holy-priest-mage price-boosting spree, since that approximately reflects their value outside of the context of their theme's weakness. Compare to a 140g Druid at 2H, 2N. 60g for +1W, +1? seems quite reasonable... or, starting with an 80g High Priest, 120g for +2N +1W +1? seems like a great deal, considering that it's all sacred... or starting with a Witch Hunter (already a great bargain) at 150g, and adding +1H and +1? for 50g (and changing the magic paths) also seems like a great deal.

However, there's also the fact that low-level Water and Nature magic are almost entirely worthless in most cases, which neither I nor Illwinter had really considered when pricing mages.

I still think 200g is a fair price for the unit, when obseved in a vacuum. But as you point out, the theme is pretty weak (especially considering that it takes Pythium from the (arguably) strongest magic nation to the (possibly) weakest). Do you think that giving Serpent Priests (another random *or* a linked random *or* 3N *or* 4H *or* 2W), and raising the price to 220~230, would make SC Pythium competitive? What about giving Acolytes a sorcery random, or replacing their 1N with a sorcery random (so they become like sacred holy Vaetti Hags)? As it stands, their mages can do little except pray for their sacred hydras...

I would leave all as in the base game, except make the hydras cheaper (base theme hydras a bit too).

[Huzurdaddi]

SC: I think what you have done with Abysia's Salamanders is cool. The idea is right: make them useful. But the tripple buff of attack, length, and reduced cost seems a little much. They are *awesome* in combat.

They could use a little nerf. I like the attack and length mod. Perhaps an increase back to the old price or heck, even more than the old price.

[Saber Cherry]

Huzurdaddi said:
SC: I think what you have done with Abysia's Salamanders is cool. The idea is right: make them useful. But the tripple buff of attack, length, and reduced cost seems a little much. They are *awesome* in combat.

They could use a little nerf. I like the attack and length mod. Perhaps an increase back to the old price or heck, even more than the old price.

OK, thanks, I'll look into that. With only ~5 attacks per battle (at 20 encumbrance) and low survivability (low protection and defense) I wanted to err on the side of cheapness, but my intention wasn't to give Abysia a new supreme unit...

[PDF]

About Arbalests : Ulm *only* has Arbalests as missiles at start, so even if they're bad they're better than nothing.
Additionally a critical mass of arbalests can rout indies outright, or break a charge (on their 2nd volley on round 4).
Even in middle game, Arbalests are the only weapon able to pierce the more common high-protection units.
So they're not that bad IMHO.

[Huzurdaddi]

Another question about Abysia: Do you think it was wise to increase the combat stats of the slayer to match those of human assassins? The slayer has 17 HP and 9 prot. He is very tough. And when I say very tough I mean Indep commanders have a rediciliously low chance of taking him out.

Everyone should have a chance to play Abysia at least once in this mod. It's comical!

[Saber Cherry]

Huzurdaddi said:
Another question about Abysia: Do you think it was wise to increase the combat stats of the slayer to match those of human assassins? The slayer has 17 HP and 9 prot. He is very tough. And when I say very tough I mean Indep commanders have a rediciliously low chance of taking him out.

Maybe, maybe not. Slayers have poison daggers instead of the superior poison dagger + shordsword, and are very expensive. In my experience, unmodded, unequipped Slayers are very unlikely to kill more then 2 indy commanders before dying or being wounded, and they certainly can't take out a commander with bodyguards. In fact I never found them (cost-effectively) useful for anything, without magical items, but used them anyway just for fun. If you compare a modded Slayer to a Star Child or Empoisoner, they come out far, far behind. Slayers may have gotten too much of a stat boost, so perhaps I should set them back -1/-1 to attack 13 / defense 12, but in so doing I'd also reduce their gold cost to perhaps 75. I'll look into it.