obat28 Netherlands

[Jaws43]

narwan said:
Jaws:

I have a question you might know the answer to regarding the dutch OOB. In it (from the 80's) the dutch mechanized infantry companies have platoons consisting of only 2 infantry squads, with 2 ATGM's and 4 YPR's. My info (which is a bit flimsy as of yet) shows them to have 3 infantry squads per platoon however with 1 or 2 ATGM's (differed per company although I don't know on what basis) and 4 YPR's. Can you confirm either the current version or what my info says?

Narwan

We had 4 YPR 765 PRI with 4 squads in a platoon and 3 platoons in a company. Each company had a support of 4 YPR 765 PRAT (TOW II) and 4 120 MM mortar drawn by 4 YPR 765 CO. It could be mixed for task but was mostly not at platoon level.

[narwan]

From what year on was that company configuration? An how many ATGM'S in the platoon?

I recall that, until the early 90's at least, the PRAT's used to be combined in a company attached to battallions and that integral artilllery support was 2 sp mortars on company level and more on battallion/brigade level.

In any case it's quite different from what is available in the game as formations.

[Jaws43]

narwan said:
From what year on was that company configuration? An how many ATGM'S in the platoon?

I recall that, until the early 90's at least, the PRAT's used to be combined in a company attached to battallions and that integral artilllery support was 2 sp mortars on company level and more on battallion/brigade level.

In any case it's quite different from what is available in the game as formations.

About the ATGM .. we had two dragons in a infantry platoon. About mortars and Prats.. we had a support company at battalion level with those mid '90, but was reorganized to support units at company level except for the mortar platoon. So every compgny had and have at the moment his only PRAT platoon. We reorganized so much lately I can get up the pace only for cavalry units. I can do research of course but my intent was the Dutch Cavalry OOB.

[narwan]

Working through the whole OB for a nation is a big task indeed. Maybe we can divide the task somewhat?

My problem is a lack of proper resources for accurate and reliable data on dutch army organisation and date's for introduction of new and discarding of old equipment. If you could point me to some good material I'll see what I can do (I'm thinking mech infantry units from 70's to 90's as a first 'objective').

[Jaws43]

narwan said:
Working through the whole OB for a nation is a big task indeed. Maybe we can divide the task somewhat?

My problem is a lack of proper resources for accurate and reliable data on dutch army organisation and date's for introduction of new and discarding of old equipment. If you could point me to some good material I'll see what I can do (I'm thinking mech infantry units from 70's to 90's as a first 'objective').

Ok give me some time. I'm busy at the moment until hollyday. I will ask around when I'm at work.

[Jaws43]

Jaws43 said:

About the ATGM .. we had two dragons in a infantry platoon. About mortars and Prats.. we had a support company at battalion level with those mid '90, but was reorganized to support units at company level except for the mortar platoon. So every compgny had and have at the moment his only PRAT platoon. We reorganized so much lately I can get up the pace only for cavalry units. I can do research of course but my intent was the Dutch Cavalry OOB.

Ok here we go;
Form 1979 until 1992 our infantry batalion had
1x support company (logictics only and a recce platoon),
1x Anti tank support company (3x PRAT platoon of 4x YPR 765 PRAT (TOW) and 4x Mortar platoon 120mm of 4x YPR 765 CO and 4 drawn Mortars),
3x infantry company(3x Infantry platoon of 4x YPR 765 PRI)Im a platoon a Section (2x YPR) had 1x garl gustaf and 20x law) mid/late 1980 law was replaced by AT 4 and and Garl Gustaf by Drangon.

During that period we had also YP 408 battalions same organized but 1986 all battalions were YPR 765

1992 we combined the support company with the Anti tank company but gave the AT platoons to the company’s. So the Support company had a Recce and mortar platoon and a infantry company had 3x infantry platoon and 1x PRAT platoon.

In 2007 we will replace the YPR 765 for the CV 9035 (35mm kanon)

So we had no mixed units with AT and infantry. It was not known that we mixed these. But there could always a situation that they were combined due mission.

We used to have independed Anti tank companies until early/ mid 1980 the had 2x AMX 13 tank and 2x AMX TOW in 1 platoon.

[Mobhack]

Jaws43 said:
Ok here we go;
Form 1979 until 1992 our infantry batalion had
1x support company (logictics only and a recce platoon),
1x Anti tank support company (3x PRAT platoon of 4x YPR 765 PRAT (TOW) and 4x Mortar platoon 120mm of 4x YPR 765 CO and 4 drawn Mortars),
3x infantry company(3x Infantry platoon of 4x YPR 765 PRI)Im a platoon a Section (2x YPR) had 1x garl gustaf and 20x law) mid/late 1980 law was replaced by AT 4 and and Garl Gustaf by Drangon.

During that period we had also YP 408 battalions same organized but 1986 all battalions were YPR 765

1992 we combined the support company with the Anti tank company but gave the AT platoons to the company’s. So the Support company had a Recce and mortar platoon and a infantry company had 3x infantry platoon and 1x PRAT platoon.

In 2007 we will replace the YPR 765 for the CV 9035 (35mm kanon)

So we had no mixed units with AT and infantry. It was not known that we mixed these. But there could always a situation that they were combined due mission.

We used to have independed Anti tank companies until early/ mid 1980 the had 2x AMX 13 tank and 2x AMX TOW in 1 platoon.

OK - from previous feedback, all mech and motor platoons are based on a 3 vehicle organisation. I presume all (wheeled and tracked) should be modified to have an extra APC + rifle section?

we have an SP-ATGM section as part of each mech/motor coy - I presume fromthe above that this should be a full platoon of 4? (with an optional coy later on where the dismounted MRAT is used - presumably a platoon of 2 vehicles and 4 MRAT teams ?)

The rifle and marine, engineer etc leg platoons are all 3 sections as well. Should that be 4 sections (ie add one HQ/support).

Nb - if the platoon HQ is a few men, then 3 sections will represent that, with the HQ spread amongst the 3 rifle sections, as we really do not want little 4 man "HQ unit - please kill me!!" instantly-recognisable units !

In other words - the leg rifle platoon and company (and any differences for say the marines) would be handy to know, if the differ from the OOB.

One other query - will dragon be replaced by Spike-SR in the mech platoons at some point, or is dragon to continue as the short range ATGM?.

if Spike-SR will be the replacement - what date, and presumably it will be called the "SRAT" as Spike-MR(AKA Gill) is the MRAT ?

I plan to finish off the modified Dutch OOB today or tomorrow - and then test it before posting for comment shortly.

Cheers
Andy

[Jaws43]

Mobhack said:

OK - from previous feedback, all mech and motor platoons are based on a 3 vehicle organisation. I presume all (wheeled and tracked) should be modified to have an extra APC + rifle section?

we have an SP-ATGM section as part of each mech/motor coy - I presume fromthe above that this should be a full platoon of 4? (with an optional coy later on where the dismounted MRAT is used - presumably a platoon of 2 vehicles and 4 MRAT teams ?)

The rifle and marine, engineer etc leg platoons are all 3 sections as well. Should that be 4 sections (ie add one HQ/support).

Nb - if the platoon HQ is a few men, then 3 sections will represent that, with the HQ spread amongst the 3 rifle sections, as we really do not want little 4 man "HQ unit - please kill me!!" instantly-recognisable units !

In other words - the leg rifle platoon and company (and any differences for say the marines) would be handy to know, if the differ from the OOB.

One other query - will dragon be replaced by Spike-SR in the mech platoons at some point, or is dragon to continue as the short range ATGM?.

if Spike-SR will be the replacement - what date, and presumably it will be called the "SRAT" as Spike-MR(AKA Gill) is the MRAT ?

I plan to finish off the modified Dutch OOB today or tomorrow - and then test it before posting for comment shortly.

Cheers
Andy

OK - from previous feedback, all mech and motor platoons are based on a 3 vehicle organisation. I presume all (wheeled and tracked) should be modified to have an extra APC + rifle section?

AGREE
only a tank platoon of a 60 tank, tank battalion had 5 tanks in a platoon. (only Centurion, Leopard 1 and leopard 1v until 1992) The leopard 2 battalions had 4 tanks in a platoon.
The MRAT platoon of a infantry company will have 6x fenneck starting this year with same load-out as MRAT vehicle recce units
And a Cheata AAA platoon has 3x Cheata and 3x stinger

we have an SP-ATGM section as part of each mech/motor coy - I presume from the above that this should be a full platoon of 4? (with an optional coy later on where the dismounted MRAT is used - presumably a platoon of 2 vehicles and 4 MRAT teams ?)

AGREE
4 vehicles in a YPR PRAT platoon
The new MRAT platoon of a infantry company will have 6 fennecks

The rifle and marine, engineer etc leg platoons are all 3 sections as well. Should that be 4 sections (ie add one HQ/support).

SORRY
I can not answer this

Nb - if the platoon HQ is a few men, then 3 sections will represent that, with the HQ spread amongst the 3 rifle sections, as we really do not want little 4 man "HQ unit - please kill me!!" instantly-recognisable units !

WE DON’T have a HQ at platoon level. It is almost the same organized as a normal group of infantry. We call 1 group a group and 2 groups a section. 2 sections a platoon.

In other words - the leg rifle platoon and company (and any differences for say the marines) would be handy to know, if the differ from the OOB.

I don’t have info on marine sorry

One other query - will dragon be replaced by Spike-SR in the mech platoons at some point, or is dragon to continue as the short range ATGM?.

SPIKE?? We don’t have a Spike at the Dutch Army. Only a Garl Gustaf and that was replaces by a dragon mid 1980

if Spike-SR will be the replacement - what date, and presumably it will be called the "SRAT" as Spike-MR(AKA Gill) is the MRAT ?

THE new SRAT is the Panzerfaust 3.The GILL is the MRAT

I plan to finish off the modified Dutch OOB today or tomorrow - and then test it before posting for comment shortly.

Well please send me the ORBAT and I will check. Many thanks

[Mobhack]

Spike-MR is/was also known as "Gill" -
http://www.defense-update.com/directory/spike-mr.htm

Spike-LR is now simply called "spike", was also called NTD it seems..
http://www.eschel.co.il/dui/directory/spike-lr.htm

seems the manufacture changed the names? - it's confusing, anyway

ah! - there appear to be 4 variants of Spike, looking at the rafael page:
http://www.rafael.co.il/web/rafnew/products-use.htm

Spike-SR,MR,LR and ER

(I have not looked into the details)
Cheers
Andy

[narwan]

Thanks! That's actually very close to the info I had.

A few questions though:

1. Carl Gustav's and Dragon's weren't used side by side in infantry platoons? Or did some have the Carl Gustav and others Dragons (for some of the time)?

2. So each platoon had (in MBT game terms) 3 inf squads and 1 at team (with either Carl Gustav's or dragon)? Did some formations have 2 at teams (dragon launchers)? (The game gives a platoon 2 launchers and my info says it varied between units).

3. The motorized (YP 408) squads also had the 20 law's (because in the game they don't anymore)?

4. The battallion recce platoon used only YPR's? Or also the M114?

5. Were those independent anti tank companies part of I corps assets or divisison/brigade assets? Btw I didn't know we had AMX's with TOW. I'll check to see if they're even in the game.

Sorry to keep you busy but I'm trying to translate your info into 'game parameters'. You can also just let me know where I can find the info and I'll do the work myself (or part of it at least ! ).

Narwan