Machineguns

[Exel]

narwan said:
Actually, tanks do shoot tanks with mg's and it is very useful, both in the real world and in the game.

No, you do not shoot at a tank with an MG. If you do that, you will only alarm the enemy tank that they are indeed under fire (if, for example the first main gun round missed and they didn't notice it), plus you will reveal your own position had the enemy not yet seen you.

For these same reasons it is pointless, even stupid, for infantry units to fire at tanks with small arms. Suppression of the tank crew and its sub-systems is not something your average crunchie would think about if faced with an MBT - buttoning up the enemy crew or disabling the commander's periscope is not worth his life. Firing at armored vehicles with small arms that have no or very little chance of actually causing damage is something you would do in panic, from close range. So add those to the panic fire codes, but remove from standard behaviour.

Although I do admit that training, morale, etc. play a factor here. Iraqis have reportedly tried to attack M1A2s with their assault rifles. But again, that's not something you'd expect from a well-trained force that knows what they are doing.

Disabling the tank MGs is not really an option, since that would also exclude the tank from firing at soft targets (reactive fire).

[narwan]

Yes you do. Not always, I agree with that. If the enemy hasn't spotted you yet it may indeed be better not to. But when he has or you can assume he is about to, you should let loose with all you have.

Infantry was (and possibly still is) trained to fire away with all available weapons when engaging armor. Unless they are operating under the same conditions I mentioned above, ie not yet spotted or not about to be and want to 'sneak attack' the tank.
Not all shoot outs between infantry and armor are 'sneak attacks' by unspotted infantry.

Also remember that game covers the whole period from 1946 to 2020 so tactics of the earlier years should also be incorporated in the game.

[Exel]

narwan said:
Yes you do. Not always, I agree with that. If the enemy hasn't spotted you yet it may indeed be better not to. But when he has or you can assume he is about to, you should let loose with all you have.

As I said, in a "panic" situation you would still let loose with all you've got. But it's not the standard procedure for tanks to engage other tanks with MGs. If you have to do that, you're already screwed.

As a side note, many modern MBTs, like the Leopard 2 series, can't even engage with their MG when they are loading since the gun tube is raised for loading. And firing with the MG at a tank is never an alternative for loading the main gun. And once you've loaded, you will engage with your main gun, again not with the MG.

Infantry was (and possibly still is) trained to fire away with all available weapons when engaging armor.

If they are spotted and engaged, lack any cover and don't have any place to cover or hide in the vicinity, then that would make sense. Otherwise the best option for them is to disengage - and keep their heads down and hide! If they lack AT weapons that is, and what point would they have in engaging with small arms if they had true AT capability?

The best option would imo be to have the small arms fire as an option when ordered. But I doubt we can have a separate "fire with all weapons" command in SPMBT.

[Pergite]

narwan said:
Also remember that game covers the whole period from 1946 to 2020 so tactics of the earlier years should also be incorporated in the game.

...and this is the reason to much of these "bugs" in unit behaviour and weapon balance.
I agree with Exel, engaging a tank(IFV or wathever) with small arms is just silly. You dont expose your position to something that can make mincemeat of you in seconds, its just common sense.

[kevin]

The only time I've heard of tanks firing their MG on other tanks IRL is a process called "dusting" (Standard USMC doctrine, I assume the Army is the same way)

Dusting is when you fire on a friendly tank to knock-off any enemy infantry that has climbed on to it.

It game terms, I'd keep using MG due to suppression factors.

[DRG]

MG and small arms fire cause an AFV to button up and enough of it adds surpression to the crew, only a bit but sometimes that is enough to cause a change in behaviour.

It also adds surpression to any infantry in the hex as well ( spotted OR unspotted ) so it's neither "pointless", "stupid" OR "silly"

It's also not going to change.

Don

[narwan]

Pergite said:
I agree with Exel, engaging a tank(IFV or wathever) with small arms is just silly. You dont expose your position to something that can make mincemeat of you in seconds, its just common sense.

If applied to personal survival yes, if applied to formations no. Engaging tanks with whatever is available may distract them enough (through buttoning/suppressing them and drawing their fire) to give your AT assets time make the kills (for example when 3 tanks are moving at an infantry platoon without at weapons and a single antitank gun (or atgm) close behind them has to do all the 'tank killing'). By doing something against common sense they may actually end up saving their own butts!
These are valid tactics (and are used), especially for units lacking the heavy kill capacity (in quality and quantity) of modern and mostly western nations (in past, present and future).

For heavy MBT's to engage other heavy MBT's with both the main armament and coax mg's might not always make sense and sometimes even be counterproductive. I completely agree with that but that's just AI limits I guess. And while firing the mg's might increase the chance of being detected and fired upon, raking the unit with mg fire reduces the chance of them spotting you, so there's a small comfort there.

[IanWilliams]

In the context of the game when I have my AFVs pop up from behind a hill to engage the enemy I usually turn off of MG. I find I can take more main gun shots before drawing reactive this way.

I'm usually playing the numerically inferior but technologicaly superior side. If I'm trying to take down 2 Abrams tanks with a bunch of T-55s I'll cut loose with everything.

[SCAJolly]

Well, the "feature" won't change, so I see no reason to debate against it. I personally hate it, seeing as firing away with a weapon that has TRACERS one a single tank is silly as hell. You'd need a loader or commander out the cupola to fire the MG (if its not coax), and the gunner would be left down there to shoot the main gun. It's like shootin' infantry with M72 AP. Yeah, it can be done, but you're not accomplishing a heck lot with it. Except with the M72 you could rip a body in two and... oh, damn, gross. You get my point.
IMO, this feature is wrong and the suppression it adds is a horrible nuisance. WWI, I could understand. WWII, certainly to an extent. Post that, decreasing to a close to zero over time.
There is that neat way to turn off the MG, though it is very flawful. Well, not flawful, just not thorough enough; If an infantry section pops by, you would really like to fire at'em with the MG.
Imagine a very simple menu... you right-click on a tank, and there are the weapons listed as now. However, there is a tiny button on the left of the name, which upon clicking gives you a short list of the alternatives: Tanks, Infantry, Aircraft. You could mark boxes or leave unmarked, depending on which you wanted to attack with that weapon. Or rather, a much more comprehensive list, which would include helicopters, soft vehicles, etc. By default, all could be marked. But enough dreaming.

Another tiny thing that frustrates the bloody hell out of me, and which IS very unrealistic: Tiny vehicles go first!!
Any NATO vs Warzaw-campaign. You line up your tanks and wait, and what do you see coming...? The BTRs! Floods and floods of APCs, trucks, utility vehicles, leaving all your units exhausted from firing (though merry from hitting). And then... Dah dah DA, enter the heavy tanks! The spearheading bastards are now left without any fire in response of their maneuvering, except perhaps for a few scattered MG rounds. Jeeebus... The tanks are normally s'posed to go first!

[kevin]

SCA, actually Soviet Doctrine has Recon versions of BMP's go first, just as M3 Bradleys lead US armored formations. If the balloon every went up, the Brads and Bumps would be the light-weight matchup that precedes the title fight.