Cross Link Scenarios: Timeline/Core army evolution

[Boonierat]

Here's the TO&E of an Air Cavalry Troop, Vietnam-style (as per Stanton's Vietnam Order of Battle )

-Officers: 14
-Warrant Officers: 33
-Soldiers 147

-.50-cal Machineguns: 7
-7.62mm M-60 Machineguns: 4
-5.56 M16 Rifles: 101
-.45-cal Pistols: 15
-.38-cal Revolvers: 78

-AH-1G Cobras: 9
-OH-6A Loaches: 9
-UH-1B Hogs: 2
-UH-1D Slicks: 6

-2 1/2-ton trucks: 8
-3/4-ton trucks: 6
-1/4-ton utility Vehicles: 3

[Listy]

That's a troop? I'd hate to see what a squadron comprises of..

Of course we've almost certainly running into that age old problem of what I call a troop, isn't what you call a troop...

[Boonierat]

Listy said:
That's a troop? I'd hate to see what a squadron comprises of..

Of course we've almost certainly running into that age old problem of what I call a troop, isn't what you call a troop...

Well a Troop is the Cavalry equivalent of a Company, and a Squadron the equivalent of a Battalion, at least that's what it was in Vietnam

[Pyros]

I think we should exclude the AIR assets (as Core force; only available as AUX reinforcements) until the 2 or 3 ToO.
Now the big question is what we have available to use from the US OOB?

What are our possibilities?

Here is just a first quick proposal (to serve as a base for further discussions)

1 ToO: Ad Hoc ground troops (Troop D) outfitted with gunjeeps and upgunned 3/4 ton trucks
2 ToO: Off-map Divisional Artillery
3 ToO: Divisional Engineers
4, 5, 6 ToOs, any combination of White, Red, Blue
7 ToO: an additional Air Troop
8 ToO: an additional Air Troop (this way the core force will have the strength of a reinforced Air squadrom
9 ToO: Free use of Core force points for alternate history ToO.

What do you think?

cheers,

[Boonierat]

Pyros said:
I think we should exclude the AIR assets (as Core force; only available as AUX reinforcements) until the 2 or 3 ToO.
Now the big question is what we have available to use from the US OOB?

What are our possibilities?

Here is just a first quick proposal (to serve as a base for further discussions)

1 ToO: Ad Hoc ground troops (Troop D) outfitted with gunjeeps and upgunned 3/4 ton trucks
2 ToO: Off-map Divisional Artillery
3 ToO: Divisional Engineers
4, 5, 6 ToOs, any combination of White, Red, Blue
7 ToO: an additional Air Troop
8 ToO: an additional Air Troop (this way the core force will have the strength of a reinforced Air squadrom
9 ToO: Free use of Core force points for alternate history ToO.

What do you think?

cheers,

Well, I'm not sure we should include the ground troop, it will be ill-suited for most of the scenarios, but for the rest I agree, maybe we should start with the aero-rifle platoon (one platoon of infantry, 6 hueys and 2 escort gunships)? we might have problems towards the end of the campaign though, as an Air Cav Squadron is a powerful unit that includes like 27 Cobras, 27 Loaches, 18 hueys, thats a lot of units to move around...

[Listy]

On basic line troops.

There doesn't seem to be anything we could take.
My understanding is that the US Aircav forces had the following gear: 8 men (the load ability of an early huey) with M16's, one M60 and M79. there would have been some M1911 .45's as well.

Nothing in the list comes that close to the above.

Forces available.
1 ToO: 1x infantry troop, raising to a company or battalion in the later stages of this ToO. Of course aloft of the extra troops could conceivably be Aux units from the same battalion.

[Boonierat]

Maybe we shouldn't try to built the core force around actual TO&Es and real untis but let the player built whatever he wishes using Pyros idea of 1-turn missions. We could start with a single infantry platoon, then at the end of each ToO let him chose between several options like an additional infantry platoon, a 105mm battery, a 155mm battery, an Aerial Rocket battery, an aero-scout platoon, an engineer platoon etc....each time adding a platoon or equivalent to his core force so he would end up with roughly two companies, more would be too large to maneuver I think.

[Pyros]

This maybe the case after the 2-3 ToO and for just a couple of times, because IMO I fear that it will create very severe balance issues (?)
Anyway if we don't use Air transport as core force in the first two ToOs we may include in these ToOs a lot of chapters (mission types; maybe fictional?) with advanced design techniques as the ones some of you have mentioned in the mission types thread.
For instance the "crashed heli" or the "evacuation" type of scenarios/missions.
But after the second ToO we may (indeed) let the player choose between the same "type" of support core force units as "a 105mm battery, a 155mm battery, an Aerial Rocket battery".

But what should we use (from the stock US OOB) for the first 2 ToOs in order to exclude the ability to have air trasport as core force (in order to make use of the special scenarios)?
Would you like that we start with a special force platoon from the "Marines OOB" (defending the special forces base in the first ToO / at some point the 1stCAV/DIV will come to the rescue; 1-2 ToOs)...
Is is possible/logical to mix units between the two OOBs (US-Marines)?
Anyway what do you think of the following as possible infantry for the foot troopD selection(?)?

[Double_Deuce]

I think we can avoid the air trans being in many of the scenario's as Core Units if, we primarily use them to come in after the battle starts, say to evac or move units out of an LZ.

I mean, would they land them in a hot LZ (probably if needed BUT this would not be the primary way to do it). They would be inserted a little ways away and move in to the objective area to make contact on foot.

This set up can be used to justify the lack of helo's in the Core Force as the scenario's would start just after they have offloaded and set up and assembly area to move out from.

If the ground unit needed to move to an LZ to be extracted from, the helo's are added as Aux/Reinforcements.

[Pyros]

DD,

I agree with you, but the problem is the following:
What should we use as infantry platoons for the core force?

The stock OOB is providing us with a platoon(H)(scouts+Helos), some support helos (gunships) and some scout helos.

Concerning the Gunship and the Scout helos there isn't any actual problem (since they have 0 transport values); we may include them from ToO 2 or 3...

The problem (concerning gameplay issues) would be if we include Helos as transport for the core force in the first couple of ToOs. This is why, I think we may start our core force (all the rest will be AUX) with the mechanized infantry (troop type D?), then we may add a divisional attachment of enginners (ToO2?) and from that point we may decide (multiple choices method) the support elements of the core force that will be added in ToO 3,4 & 5.
We should also try to think which ToO (4-7) will be qualified as the one for the addition of the transportable elements of the Cav Div (troops+Helos platoon). From a given point the existence of a couple of platoon (H) won't matter since the missions will include enough AA cover for the NVA.
Also in the final couple of historical ToOs the battles will include a lot of units (huge scenarios/maps) and Air transportation will be included in the scenario analysis.

So, what should we use as the starting element of our core force?

cheers,