War.... (Historical: 9/11 discussion thread)

[Solar]

quote:

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Originally posted by Hadrian Aventine:

Excuse me if this is rude, but biological warfare and such is Tom Clancy "If" items.

Originally posted by Puke:
speaking of tom clancy, cnn is linking to some interview with him and citing him as an authority on terrorist's orginizational logistics. no wonder people condenm western culture.

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Yesterday as I stared in shock at my television screen, something about the whole scenario seemed eerily familiar. Last night I finally remembered what it was.

In 1996 I read a book by Tom Clancy called Executive Orders. In the book, terrorists crash a 747 into the capitol building, killing almost everyone inside. It's almost spooky re-reading the scenes of devastation in light of what's happened.

I have to say that I, too, am stunned that we didn't see this coming. If Tom Clancy, a novel writer, could predict an airliner being used as a terrorist weapon, why the hell is American Intelligence scratching their collective heads saying "Gee...I dunno. We never really thought about this kinda thing."

A couple of other warning signs that went unheeded:
Remember the small plane that managed to crash into the Clinton white house?

Even the Columbine shooters wrote about stealing/hijacking a plane and crashing it into Washington.

I don't mean to be critical. I'm just saddened that it took such a tragic loss of life to get the US to wake up.

Solar

[This message has been edited by Solar (edited 12 September 2001).]

[This message has been edited by Solar (edited 12 September 2001).]

[This message has been edited by Solar (edited 12 September 2001).]

[dmm]

I can't help but rebut some comments posted here. Here goes:
1) Israel's military occupation of the West Bank began after they defeated a bunch of enemies, INCLUDING THE PALESTINIANS, who tried to push them into the sea. Question for all you SEIV players: What do you do with a defeated enemy? Give him all his planets back, and no apology necessary?
2) This occupation has not been brutal, as alleged on this forum. In fact, the West Bank has seen unprecedented prosperity over the Last 34 years. The West Bank Palestinians are much wealthier than the Syrian or Jordanian Palestinians. And it wouldn't have gone on for 34 years if the PLO and other Palestinian Groups had not made it their mission to destroy Israel.
3) To compare the "intifada" casualties to the recent US deaths is pure BS. First, most of the intifada deaths either occurred during a riot or were assassinations of known terrorists (or harborers of terrorists). Innocent civilian deaths, although certainly tragic, have been a small minority. Second, the numbers of intifada deaths, innocent or otherwise, do not approach 30,000, not even after 34 years of supposedly brutal military occupation.
4) To compare the economic casualties of the intifada to the recent US destruction is pure BS. The whole West Bank isn't worth one World Trade Center tower.
5) To say that Islam is really a nice, sweet religion is pure BS. Maybe this is true of most Muslims in the West, but it certainly isn't true worldwide. Fact: there is not one Muslim country in the whole world that has real freedom of religion. Even in relatively progressive Muslim countries like Egypt or Saudi Arabia, Muslims who convert to other religions are routinely murdered and the government does nothing. Maybe the majority of Muslims in those countries don't condone that behavior, but they don't stop it either. Their reaction is never more than "tsk tsk" and a slap on the wrist. The Islamics worldwide who hate America don't hate us because of our wealth or our power -- they hate us for the same reason that they hate the Israelis: because we are not Muslims, plain and simple!

[BloodyRanger]

Aside from trying to "hunt down" the perpetrators of this dispicable act, we should be asking ourselves "How do we prevent this in the future?" I am personally shocked that the airspace around the Pentagon is not more tightly regulated. If there weren't SAM sites around the Capital, there should be soon. Of course, being ordered to shoot down a plane full of US Citizens would be a trying experience to say the least.

[geoschmo]

quote:

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Originally posted by Solar:
[BI have to say that I, too, am stunned that we didn't see this coming. If Tom Clancy, a novel writer, could predict an airliner being used as a terrorist weapon, why the hell is American Intelligence scratching their collective heads saying "Gee...I dunno. We never really thought about this kinda thing."[/b]

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You are way off the mark here. Of course our intelligence operations thought about this sort of thing happening. But thinking about it and preventing it are too different things.

In the days and weeks to come we are going to hear tons of reports of information that someone should have been able to see this coming. Some of this will be rumor, but some of it will be true. But none of it changes the fact that it's very hard to infiltrate an organization such as this and discover their plans. And nearly inpossible to stop them once they have been put into motion.

How do you infiltrate an orginization who's members have dedicated their lives to. Not only that they are willing to die, but that their goal is to die in the performance of their mission?

And if you decide that's too hard, how do you stop an operation like this once it's started?

Strip searches at airports?
Armed guards on every airplane?
Fighter escorts for every airplane flying over populated areas, with orders to fire upon a fully loaded plane with innocent passengers if they deviate one iota from there prescribed flight plan?

We could move the airports 100 miles from any major city I guess.

The only way to stop things is to punish those responsible so that they they cannot do such things again.

If Bin Laden turns out to be responsible as most early indications point too, then the way we could have prevented this was to punish him for his terrorist activites over the Last 10+ years.

At the very least hounding him and pressuring other governments to not allow him sanctuary would have kept him on the run and unable to plan and execute this acts.

Geoschmo

[Alpha Kodiak]

quote:

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Originally posted by geoschmo:
<snip>
The only way to stop things is to punish those responsible so that they they cannot do such things again.

If Bin Laden turns out to be responsible as most early indications point too, then the way we could have prevented this was to punish him for his terrorist activites over the Last 10+ years.

At the very least hounding him and pressuring other governments to not allow him sanctuary would have kept him on the run and unable to plan and execute this acts.

<snip>

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I'm with Geo on this one. We need to find out who did this and make very sure that they (and anyone else who is like minded) find out that attacking Americans is a BAD thing, and doing so carries with it BAD consequences.

For those who don't like Americans claiming high moral ground, think about this: somebody just killed thousands, or more probably, tens of thousands of people for no reason other than to kill and cause terror. You will have to excuse us for taking the high moral ground in going after them.

[golf_prez]

I am surprised that the word "Armageddon" hasn't been referenced in the media (yet). But I did read this in the paper today next to a picture of the skeleton of the WTC.

"And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas alas, that great city where (we) were made rich ... for in one hour is she made desolate" - Revelation 18:19

Probably just media sensasionalism... but if you believe in God and the Bible, you can't help but wonder if we are living in the times as described in Revelation.

[Puke]

Geo is right. its not that we didnt see this coming, its that you cant do things to prevent this. what, eliminate airspace over cities? right. institute extremeist security policies at airports? thats giving into terrorism. my biggest complaint is 'why the heck dont we have an armed skycop on every single plane?' oooh, it costs money, and theres some sort of money shortage in America? give me a break! tightwads.

and you want SAM sites around the capitol? you dont think we have them? you dont think we have them in New York City? what exactly do you want them to do? shoot down every airliner not on a preapproved flight plan? thats really brilliant. It like the bombing of the USS Cole, its not that our port security sucks. we have guys patroling the deck with sidearms when the boat is at port. BUT, when its at a FRIENDLY port, those guns are UNLOADED because the risk of causing a political incident outweighs the risk to the boat. sam sites.. sheesh. that would make it safer to travel