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  #1  
Old September 13th, 2001, 10:27 AM
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Default Re: War....

while civilians should probably be armed, and should be educated about the safe and effective use of arms before being allowed to have or bear arms, its probably a very BAD idea to arm civilians for any specific purpose. its probably a MORONIC idea to let them have such arms on a commercial airplane. primarily because people are recationary, tend to panic, and even when not in a fight or flight situation, most people are just plain DUMB.

subways are different tho. everyone should have a gun on the subway. maybe two or three. they should be in safe places though, because i can invision alot of firearms theft if they are somewhere easy to reach when you are elbow to elbow with a dozzen faceless people.
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Old September 13th, 2001, 11:02 AM

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Default Re: War....

quote:
Originally posted by askan:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by geoschmo:

If a nation, any nation, can be shown to have been involved in this, even indirectly by simply allowing those guilty freedom of movement and the ability to train, then that nation can be, MUST be held responsible. Eqully responsible to those that took an active part in the actions.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Now thats a big and dangerous statement.

Askan



Indeed.
Wasn't it the US that created this monster Bin Laden in the first place?
Back when he was fighting the Soviet empire it was allright for him to murder, he got CIA training and support to do so. Now that he has turned against the American empire, it is a different matter.
America is indeed an empire, as Puke boldly states, and it IS imperialistic, in that it has dirtied it's hands in external affairs on numerous occasions. Askan's list is by no means complete. Besides actual dirty work there is huge pressure on nations to view and do things 'The American Way'.
To you and me the frase 'The American way' sounds like a good thing but to many others it certainly does not.
Many people bear a grudge against the US and it's supremacy. And 'resistance' has been going on for a long time. It just wasn't waged on American home soil and on such a scale.
Now, I am not saying that America is reaping what it has sown but it is indeed a war. A war that, seen from the other's viewpoint, could be regarded as a freedom fight against American dominance and they fight it as any other group has done in history, when they were confronted by a military machine many times superior. One calls them guerilla's or maquis or partisans the other calls them terrorists, bandits, rebels. It is an age old dilemma and it is now America's turn to wonder how to deal with such an enemy. Do you use oppression(turn the state into a police state) , retaliate(against Afghanistan?), search and destroy?
Very difficult indeed. Decisions not to be taken lightly.
None of us want to live in a police state like the old Soviet Union or the Third Reich, with propaganda and security ensuring that everebody sees things the 'right way'.
As for retaliation,Austria's decision to retaliate against Serbia, harbouring and supporting the assasins of their crown-prince, led to World War I. Please remember.

Maybe search and destroy remains the best option.Although it does not give you immediate satisfaction for the grief and horror of the attack, it does reduce the risk of creating even more hate and killing the wrong people.

my 2 cents, I guess.
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  #3  
Old September 14th, 2001, 01:58 AM
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Default Re: War....

quote:
Wasn't it the US that created this monster Bin Laden in the first place?
Back when he was fighting the Soviet empire it was allright for him to murder, he got CIA training and support to do so.
I beleive you are confusing Asami Bin Laden with the Afgan rebels. Bin Laden had nothing to do that I have ever heard with the Afgan strugle against the former Soviet occupation. He is a Saudi Arabian and a religous zealot who caused lots of trouble in his home country and only went to Afganistan after similarly like minded religous zealots took over that country. That's the only place he could find that he could operate without fear of being returned to Saudi Arabia or America and facing justice. He is a coward, and a power monger.

I am so sick and tired of being told the U.S. can't do this or that because of "terrible" things we did in the past.

Logic like that would have kept us out of WWI and WWII.

"So what if Japan bombed Pearl Harbor? They only attacked military targets that were a threat to their interests. And Hawaii was "conqured" by the US anyway."

"So what if Germany was conquering all of Europe, twice? How is that different than what we did to the Indians?"

TOUGH! This IS different.

The rules have changed, and NOT simply because this attack took place on U.S. soil. It was naive for any of us to think that terrorism would never strike our country, especially since we live in such a free and open soceity.

But this changes the rules by the sheer scale and audacity of the attack. And by the level of training and support that would have been needed to pull this off.

I keep hearing on the news that "This is the worst terrorist attack in American history." And it makes me want to scream. This is the worst terroist attack in the history of the world.

This is not only an attack on the United States. Even though the targets were in the U.S. This was the WORLD Trade Center. Many foreign nationals undoubtedly lost their lives on Tuesday.

Every country in the world today must be saying "There but for the grace of God go I."

This is not a war between America against Afganistan.

This is a war between every civilized nation in the world, and any organization that would perpatrate such actions. And against any country that would aid and shelter any such organization.

If the Taliban government wants to avoid the bombs, they can turn over those responsible at once. I am sure things would go much better for them if they do. But they won't. Because even if they didn't "know" the extreme nature of this attack, they knew the Bin Laden was planning, and had taken actions against us in the past, and they didn't stop him or turn him over then. They are not innocent. They are not even appologetic.

They issued threats on Wedsnday that any attacks against them could cause anger and result in further suicide attaks. That sounds sorry to you? Check it out.

The rules have changed. We didn't change them. But we are going to find those responsible, and make them pay. And the rest of the world will owe us another debt of gratitude for doing it when it's all over. And you know what? I really don't care who likes it or doesn't like it.

Geoschmo
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Old September 13th, 2001, 02:13 PM
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Default Re: War....

QUOTE:
the rest of the world will owe us another debt of gratitude for d
/QUOTE

Is this really what you Americans believe? That the rest of the world owes you a favour because you (eventually) took part in the World Wars? You don't think 50 years of economic supremacy and the assimilation of half the planet into your mindset and culture is reward enough? Someone please tell me he's the only one...

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Old September 13th, 2001, 02:31 PM

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Default Re: War....

quote:
Originally posted by geoschmo:
[quote]I beleive you are confusing Asami Bin Laden with the Afgan rebels. Bin Laden had nothing to do that I have ever heard with the Afgan strugle against the former Soviet occupation.
Geoschmo



Sorry, I am not confused.
Was afraid I was for a minute but here's a recent article on Bin Laden. http://www.newsmax.com/archives/arti...3/214858.shtml

And one from the Guardian http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Ar...095663,00.html


[This message has been edited by Exculcator (edited 13 September 2001).]
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  #6  
Old September 13th, 2001, 02:58 PM
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Default Re: War....

quote:
Originally posted by Exculcator:
Sorry, I am not confused.
Was afraid I was for a minute but here's a recent article on Bin Laden.



I stand corrected. I was not aware of that. But it does not change the fact that he must be dealt with.

If you own and raise a vicious dog, and one day the dog attacks and kill your children, then you in fact hold much of the ultimate responsibilty. But do you simply fall on the floor and wail "What have I done to my children?" or do you get your gun, and shoot the dog?

I have no doubt that ultimatley this will have serious repurcussions within the our government and our intelligence agencies.

I am sorry dogscoff if I have offended you. I am very angry. We are all very angry. But I am not the only American that feels this way. And many non-Americans feel this way as well.

I cannot believe you would rather have lived these Last 50 years under the oppression of the Axis powers.

Geoschmo
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Old September 13th, 2001, 03:09 PM
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Default Re: War....

To all of you, especially those from other countries.

I appologize for allowing my anger and my fear for seeping into my Last few Posts. I know many of you live in coutries where these kinds of things are more expected. But the fact is that here, they are not.

Or were not. We Americans have been changed in the Last few days. I hope for the better, but I do not know that for sure. Hopefully our leaders can remain calm in these trying times and only do what is right.

I will try to keep my further Posts here limited to Space Empires.

And I will try to get a hold of myself.

Geoschmo

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