War.... (Historical: 9/11 discussion thread)

[dogscoff]

OK, the meaning of my post has been misunderstood here. It's my own fault for addressing Geoshmoe's "another debt of gratitude" out of the context of his post.

QUOTE:
have thousands of your people die and then have people give reasons for why we are so horrible that we shouldn't do anything about it.
/QUOTE

I never said we were doing you a favour and I nver said you shouldn't do something about terrorism. I was just reacting to Geoschmoe's comment about everyone owing the US a favour (Actually, he said "debt of gratitude". ~Same thing.)

You're right, it doesn't matter where this guy came from, he can't be allowed to continue. (Assuming he actually did it, that is.) By all means defend yourselves, react or counter attack (sensibly) - we'll support you. However it's never enough *just* to react- you have to look at the reasons why it happened in the first place.

I'm sorry for my comments if they have caused offence, particularly since you US ppl have plenty to deal with as it is right now. It's just that this has whole thing has stirred up a lot of US nationalism / patriotism / militarism / moralising, and for some reason that tends to get me into yank-bashing mode immediately. It probably shouldn't, but it does. Sorry.

Take a look at my previous Posts on this thread, you'll see I'm not such a bad guy=-)

*Dogscoff orders everyone a reconciliatory beer.

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SE4 Code:
L GdY $ Fr- C- Sd T!+ Sf-- Tcp-- A% M>M+ MpD! RV Pw Fq+ Nd- Rp+ G-
/SE4 Code
Go to my meagre SEIV pages to generate your own code.

[This message has been edited by dogscoff (edited 13 September 2001).]

[Askan Nightbringer]

quote:

---

Originally posted by dogscoff:
*Dogscoff orders everyone a reconciliatory beer.

---

I'll drink to that.

Askan

[geoschmo]

I'll take that beer Dogscoff. And I'll buy you one too. I have read back over my words, and they were too emptionally charged, and that is why I appologized.

It may in fact be that America owes the world an apology for making this mess by enabling these people to get to where they are today. And if that is the case we are reaping what we have sown.

We may in fact owe the world an apology for delaying our entry into the two World Wars until American blood was shed.

I heard an interview with Sen. Joe Biden Last night, who incidentally is my new hero, where he spoke very eloquently to this fact. I have to paraphrase cause I don't recall all the words, but basically it was to the effect that the American people didn't move when the entire British Army was floating in the Channel (I am assuming he is talking about Dunkirk), but when bombs fell on Pearl, we moved.

I can tell you that personally I am unacustomed to being afraid. I am uncomfortable with the feeling. I don't know if this is an American thing, or just me personnaly. Tuesday I was afraid. Today I am angry.

I live in Ohio. For those of you unfamilier with America this is geographically, and even culturally many miles from New York City. Before Tuesday, New York City often times felt like as much of a foreign city to me as London.

Today I am a New Yorker.

On Monday, and every day prior in my life I looked to the sky and felt safe. I felt that I was master of all that I surveyed.

Of course I was naive, but that is how it was.

Before Tuesday my greatest fear was that another American would kill me for the twenty dollars in my pocket. I never conceived of an attack from outside.

Of course I was naive, but that is how it was.

I will tell you something that was not reported on the national news. On Tuesday afternoon as the President returned to Washington, his plane flew over Ohio. Some fighters esscorting him broke the sound barrier.

We were not warned that this might happen. At the time I was not aware what the noise was. I went outside and saw the contrails in a sky where the news had just told me there were no planes. And for a time I was frightened. My knees were were literally weak.

I was not the master of all I surveyed.

I am no longer naive.

To those that wish to do us harm, and I do not believe anybody who visits this forum is one of those...

If your goal was to make us afraid, you have suceeded.

If you goal was to take away our naivete, you have succeded.

If your goal was to make us angry, you have succeded.

If your goal was to make us weak, you have failed.

Geoschmo

[Exculcator]

quote:

---

Originally posted by dogscoff:

I'm sorry for my comments if they have caused offence, particularly since you US ppl have plenty to deal with as it is right now. It's just that this has whole thing has stirred up a lot of US nationalism / patriotism / militarism / moralising, and for some reason that tends to get me into yank-bashing mode immediately. It probably shouldn't, but it does. Sorry.

[/b]

---

Same here, sorry.
And I certainly didn't mean that you have no right to do anything.
Hell, go shoot that dog, geoschmo!
Just wanted to say, be sure you shoot the right dog.

Can I have my beer now please..

[dogscoff]

QUOTE:
We may in fact owe the world an apology for delaying our entry into the two World Wars until American blood was shed.
/QUOTE

I for one am opposed to th whole "sins of the father" thing. Dunkirk and D-Day was well before I was born, and I think it is ridiculous for a nation or a people or a religion ar anything to apologise for something perpetrated by their predecessors.
Hell, as an Englishman I'd be apologising for the rest of my life.

Furthermore I'm not too big on nationalism either. You say that you hurt because your people died. I consider them my people as much as yours; as you said yourself, in today's world New York is as far from Ohio as London.

------------------
SE4 Code:
L GdY $ Fr- C- Sd T!+ Sf-- Tcp-- A% M>M+ MpD! RV Pw Fq+ Nd- Rp+ G-
/SE4 Code
Go to my meagre SEIV pages to generate your own code.

[Alpha Kodiak]

Just another horrible effect of terrorism: it drives a wedge of fear and anger between people that are really on the same side. I, too, got caught up in emotions that made me lash out. For that, I apologize.

We need to unite to defeat these agents of terror. Then we need to unite to find fair solutions to the situations that they use as tools to inspire hatred in the people they use as pawns.

The trouble is that those solutions are going to be tough to find. We are dealing with centuries of hatred. It's not localized in the Middle East, either. There's plenty of hatred going around in the Balkans, in Africa, in Ireland, and yes, in the United States (and probably everywhere else for that matter) to generate terrorism for a long time to come.

Unfortunately, I don't know the answers. It's easy to point fingers to things that have happened in the past, and plenty of guilt to be shared. I have no delusions that the US is squeaky-clean, and there are plenty of others that can share blame as well. Somehow, we need to find answers, not point fingers.

<Steps down from soap box>

Well now, I wasn't expecting a speech when I decided to post an apology! Can't trust my own keyboard.

[mac5732]

All thru history, one country or another has been labeled and trashed, England, Spain, Portugal, Russia, Germany, etc. Now its our turn in the US because we're considered on top. I can understand this, but sometimes it is hard to accept. Whenever there is a disaster the US is one of the first to send help, food, clothing, medicine, etc. We have lent or given money to many nations and Groups to help their people or nations and yet how many countries in the past have done the same to us when we had disasters, ie: Hurricanes, earthquakes, etc. Have we ever condemned them for not helping? Not that I'm aware of, however I have heard and seen other countries condemn us because we didn't send enough money or help when they were in need. This is what I meant when I stated I understand but that it is hard. Terroism is a world problem not any one countrys. Hopefully what happened here will show everyone that all countries need to close ranks and fight this wholesale murder of innocents no matter where it strikes. Yes the US was unprepared and naive that it could happen here, but once awaken, they don't forget and they will react. As Yamamoto once stated " I am afraid we have awaken a sleeping Giant". CNN has just stated that there were 2 day cares on the 32nd floor of both buildings and that all indications are that none of the children made it out. I guess its things like this that make us mad to the point of unreason, but how would anyone else feel? The world needs to eliminate the slaughter of innocents by terroism no matter who or where they are along with those who support, hide and give them aid. These are not soldiers fighting for a cause, They are just plain murderers, the WTC was not a military target it was just people, men, women and children and this more then anything else in my opinion is what makes this crime so hideous, it was done on purpose, not by mistake, it was intentinal not by accident. I consider everyone on this forum friends and I hope my opinion does not take away from that, I have lost brothers & sisters (not by blood) that I have never met who were killed trying to rescue and give aid at the WTC, over 259 listed so far, let alone all the civilians and maybe this hits me a little more then others I don't know, but I just had to get this off my chest, I've seen war both while in the military and on the streets here in the US, and unless you've been there its hard to express what you have seen and experienced to understand what I'm saying here. I thank all of you for letting me get this off my chest, it helps sometimes to be able to talk about things, it makes it easier to handle.. I apoligize to anyone I have offended, I don't mean to, it just that I feel that you are friends even tho we have never met. This is a sad day for the world not just the US. The terrosits have shown that a new weapon of mass destruction can be employed, and no one, anywhere, in any city or country is immune. Be careful and God Bless the US and every country in this world and prayers to the victims and their families.

just some ideas mac