Soviet tank crew survival.

[JaM]

Survivability in game is not a survivability you think it is. In game, if you have two tanks with armor 50, one with surv. 4 and other with 5, and if you hit them with weapon with penetration 51, tank 2 will have better chance to survive than tank 1. My point is that T-72 armor is not solid.For example maximum thickness of T-72M1 turret is around 430mm vs KE (corners of the turret), minimum 290mm(upper front turret,weakened zone around the gun - mantlet).There is good chance to hit this weaker armor instead heavy. Same for all versions of russian tanks (T-90 max. turret armor 80cm KE min 35-45cm KE)

[Marcello]

"In game, if you have two tanks with armor 50, one with surv. 4 and other with 5, and if you hit them with weapon with penetration 51, tank 2 will have better chance to survive than tank 1."

This is more or less what we have been told repeatedly.

The point which you and others made was that T-XX with autoloaders should be more vulnerable due to their armor storage and others factors and should deserve a lower survivability rating with its consequencesater chances of going boom with even only limited penetrations, lower chances of the crew getting out and whatever.
I disagree, to an extent, for the reasons exposed in the previous posts (at least as far as T-72 goes, I do not have detailed manual drawings for the T-64 and the T-80).

"My point is that T-72 armor is not solid.For example maximum thickness of T-72M1 turret is around 430mm vs KE (corners of the turret), minimum 290mm(upper front turret,weakened zone around the gun - mantlet).There is good chance to hit this weaker armor instead heavy. Same for all versions of russian tanks (T-90 max. turret armor 80cm KE min 35-45cm KE)"

So now the issue becomes armor ratings.There is no easy answer for that.The T-72 armor scheme is supposedly designed according to hit probability,with the area most likely to be hit being given the maximum protection and viceversa.Or so I have heard at any rate.That simply cannot be captured accurately in the game.ERA in the game is a mess.Several compromises have been implemented at various times to deal with these issues.

[JaM]

I didnt change my opinion. M60A3 is much more survivable tank than any T-72 (to post penetration efects) Im just telling that survivability rating mean much more than how many crew will survive penetrating hit.

[Marcello]

"Im just telling that survivability rating mean much more than how many crew will survive penetrating hit."

Well, I already knew that.

[Marcello]

"M60A3 is much more survivable tank than any T-72"

Back to post penetration effects.More survivable? Possibly.
Much? I would be less sure about that (unless they introduced something on the A3 I am not aware of).At the end of the day these are all tanks with old style internal storage.

[Shadowcougar]

Sorry to interject here but just what are we discussing now. Its been a while but I remember that someone said that Soviet tank crews were surviving too much. Is this correct what this argument is about?

I have never had many Soviet tank crew survive me hitting them with the M256 main gun nor a Tow 2. No matter how much you overkill a tank, sometimes a crewman or 2 will get out. Its just a fact. Not every Iraqi crewman died in his tank during GW1.

I am amazed how long this argument has gone on and how its wandered off its point, whatever that point was. I have forgotten now.

[JaM]

Shadowcougar said:
Not every Iraqi crewman died in his tank during GW1.

No, but 99 percent of killed Iraqi tankers were those who served in T-72...
How you will survive, if your turret goes away? You have no chance. I read on tanknet that htere was one commander that survive this, becouse he was sitting in commander hatch, but he was critically wounded, he lost both legs... APFSDS DU rounds has much better killability than HEAT or Tungsten rounds.DU react with armor in pirroforic reaction and burn everithing in its way, so it is imposible for fire suppresion system to do something, and once ammo is cook off you will loose turret with both commander and gunner in it. It is highly unpropable that driver will survive turret blowout as he sit closely to autoloader too.