Newbie's first impressions

[teal]

PCarroll said:

A simple card game or classic board game might suit me. But then it's almost always abstract, and I miss the theme (be it fantasy, history, or whatever). Also, classic games tend to be very analytical; and to me, analysis is work, not play. I don't want to have to work at a game. Nor am I competitive. I play games for fun; competition is incidental.

...

What a weird, tangled-up attitude I've delveloped toward games, huh?

--Patrick

Hi Patrick,

I too have felt like I had a weird attitude towards games. What you are saying really struck a chord for me, games were getting too long and complex and frankly no fun, and yet the simpler, traditional games often lacked that "flavor" or theme which is what really attracks me to a game in the first place. Then I discovered a little German board game called Settlers of Catan. The game was short (around 90 minutes), it was fun (me and my friends laughed constantly about "trading wood for sheep"), it had some depth (there was a variety of strategies, not all of which were apparent at first glance), the theme was a little pasted on but definately present, and some analysis was rewarded but did not dominate the game. That game launched a whole industry around these short (playable in an evening), simple (rules were easily taught and learned), yet involving (more thought was required than, should I be the dog or the battleship this time?) games. Most of the designs come from Germany, so they are often called German style board games. You can find out more about them at a slightly out of date FAQ here. Or the comprehensive resource that is the Board Game Geek at www.boardgamegeek.com (which can be a bit overwhelming at first due to the huge numbers of these games that have come out since Settlers first made it big, and BGG is devoted to all games, not just these German ones).

Good luck in finding your gaming Nirvana!

Teal

[PCarroll]

teal said:. . . Then I discovered a little German board game called Settlers of Catan. . . . That game launched a whole industry around these short (playable in an evening), simple (rules were easily taught and learned), yet involving (more thought was required than, should I be the dog or the battleship this time?) games. Most of the designs come from Germany, so they are often called German style board games. . . .

I own Setters of Catan and Seafarers of Catan--and the Settlers card game. I also have a freeware version of Settlers on my PC. And I used to frequent rec.games.board, where such games are discussed all the time.

Settlers is a terrific game alright. Next time I get together with three other people for a game, that's probably the one we'll play.

However, last time I got together with three other people for a game was four or five years ago. Last time I played the Settlers card game with my wife was a year or two ago (after that, we discovered Caesar & Cleopatra, which she likes better). The people I know don't play games that often, and I haven't wanted to go out and meet new people just for the sake of playing games. To me, that's the biggest personal benefit of the home computer: it enables me to play games anytime I like without having to hunt up other players.

The Internet came along some years after I'd gotten used to playing games on the computer--and I still haven't really warmed up to playing online games yet. I have played some--but there's a part of me that really doesn't like the tension of playing against other people. Playing against the AI gives me the imaginative immersion and intellectual challenge without any of the interpersonal tension or putting my ego publicly at risk.

But the "German" games are mostly designed for social play. On the computer, Settlers isn't much fun. Trading games don't work well as single-player games, no matter how good the AI is. (I guess poker would be another game like that; in poker it's important to be able to see your opponents' faces--so computer poker would be sorely lacking.)

I briefly had another "German" game on my computer: Through the Desert. I found that one so abstract that I might as well have been playing a classic game like chess or go.

Speaking of classic games, this evening I spent an hour or so playing cribbage, backgammon, and dominoes on the computer--and I enjoyed them all! When I'm in the right mood, theme is optional. And one thing I especially like about playing games like those is that I feel I'm practicing so that I'll know what I'm doing next time I play against another person (even if that doesn't happen for another year or so).

Before I started playing those games, however, I taught my wife to play Dom2. More on that in a separate post.

[PCarroll]

I taught my wife to play Dom2 this evening. She's a longtime Master of Magic fan--still hoping a MoM2 comes out someday. Meanwhile she's been settling for AoW3:SM.

She seemed interested all while I was teaching her to play, and I sat and guided her through several moves. Then she started losing track of her commanders and getting frustrated, so she quit.

She ended up saying, "I don't see how anyone could say that game is a worthy successor to MoM. It doesn't have any of the stuff I like--such as being able to cast spells and see them take effect." She viewed only one battle, then refused to bother with that; she considered it a waste of time since she couldn't influence the outcome.

She also had the impression that Dom2 is an old game, judging by its plain look and old-fashioned user interface. The UI finally did her in; she's unlikely to play Dom2 again. She'll go back to AoW3:SM and keep hoping somebody releases a new, improved version of MoM.

[Tals]

Give her the manual and point out that F1 keeps track of the commanders. I'm a real non hard core gamer but this game in terms of magic is unsurpassed IMHO. A year on I still pick up the manual and go through it - nicely done and the descriptions and attention put to the spells is very impressive.

I'd also recommend an MP game - I could never go through this game in SP, really holds little interest - but in an MP pbem or network game - great!

Tals

[magnate]

Hmmm. I can see that Dom2's combat would disappoint if you were used to the tactical control of MoM or AoW. I played VGA Planets even before I played MoM, so Dom2's pbem-style combat videos were comfortably familiar, if not as exciting as tactical battles. As least you can script your armies in Dom2 - in VGAP it was hard enough to get them fighting in the right order, let alone telling them what to do in combat.

I missed the first AoW, but I'll look out for it. I quite enjoyed AoW2:SM but it was really *too* close to MoM for comfort, without being an improvement.

Patrick, I have run out of ideas for your gaming geas. I share your desire for an involving theme, but I don't share your impatience with analysis - in fact I generally prefer longer games over shorter ones, so Dom2 works very well for me (until the micro really hurts after about turn 70).

I do have a friend who is a veritable fount of gaming knowledge - I've known him for about ten years and we've hardly ever played the same game twice. I think he might be able to suggest some more games for you to try. If you're interested, PM me with your email address and I'll put you in touch with him.

CC

[Endoperez]

As I am reading this, I can't help thinking that PCarroll and others with lots of experience from both computer strategy games and strategic board games would be the perfect idea factories for Dominions III. Also, he could also tell how to make people like his wife get interested in the game more easily. UI improvements, Hall of Fame list for whole games (% of sites found in onwed provinces, conquered unique provinces, statistics for the game, best SCs/mages, favourite unit/commander/spell/summon etc etc), and possibly Battle Simulator or some other way to experience how directly orders affect battles. I'm not sure if lots of these are doable at this point, with the game slowly(?)coming together, but it never hurts...

What else has been mentioned in this thread? What else can you think of? I think the guys at Illwinter would be very interested in this discussion if they haven't already found this. It has been quite insightful for me, too.

[spirokeat]

Actually I think there comes a point with some people (myself included at times) when you simply burn out on games and no ammount of UI/theme/Styles will do.

You just can't please everyone and its a bad business idea to try. Personally I despise why that is, but thats a different story.

Dom 2 has an audience...Multiplayer. I actually play SP only, though if anyone would like to invite me to a game I would love to try.

When I first started I thought...damn no tactical combat. But the advantages outweight anything else. And Im sorry Patrick but to say that you dont get to see spells working is not true...MoM had limited spell effetcs, they reminded me of 8 bit sprites.

Dom is without any debate the successor to MoM....I signed the MOM2 petition with I'm sure the rest of you. But to be honest, I just get the feeling your not in the mood for anything right now.

Good luck in finding something to ring your bell.

Spiro

[PCarroll]

Tals said:
Give her the manual and point out that F1 keeps track of the commanders. I'm a real non hard core gamer but this game in terms of magic is unsurpassed IMHO. A year on I still pick up the manual and go through it - nicely done and the descriptions and attention put to the spells is very impressive.

I'd also recommend an MP game - I could never go through this game in SP, really holds little interest - but in an MP pbem or network game - great!

I did give her the manual; I pointed out the hot keys and the extensive listing of spells. And I repeatedly called her attention to the F1 key, which she did (of course) find useful.

I also mentioned how all the Dom2 fans seem to be raving about it's magic system being unsurpassed. But her response, which I think I quoted above, was, "So what? If I don't get to see my spells taking effect when they're cast, it doesn't matter how extensive the magic is."

Oh--and I did mention the fact that Dom2 seems to have been designed with multiplayer gaming in mind. She shrugged that off (as I would have myself). One evening I saw her playing a card game against a computer AI, and I said, "You know, you could play this online against real people." She frowned and replied, "I've been extroverting all day at work. The *last* thing I want to do when I'm relaxing at home is interact with other people, even across a virtual game table." Like me, she's very much a single-player gamer.

[Tals]

I don't think anyone says its unsurpassed just that it is detailed. In fact I don;t think i'd even say anyone is raving - this is probably one of the most self critical publishers forums you'll find

But yeah it is for MP - i'd take the opposite view - why the heck do I want to play against a lump of meta with pre programmed responses, far more fun to play against a human - the interaction from the human perspective is as little or as much as you want - it is not by any stretch an fps style chat - far from it in fact

My own view is this game sucks in SP and i've seen no comments that would suggest otherwise. But you'd have to try the MP out to really understand it's attraction. I understand it's not of interest but it is where the game sings.

Tals

[quantum_mechani]

Tals said:
I don't think anyone says its unsurpassed just that it is detailed. In fact I don;t think i'd even say anyone is raving - this is probably one of the most self critical publishers forums you'll find

Sorry to burst your bubble... but I do think it is unsurpassed. And I'm most certainly raving.