OT: Enterprise...What did you think?

[Mephisto]

Ok guys, right out of the tech manual for the Enterprise-D:
Warp 1: Lightspeed *1
Warp 2: Lightspeed *10
Warp 3: Lightspeed *50
Warp 4: Lightspeed *100
(Scale is hard to read from here on)
Warp 5: Lightspeed *200
Warp 6: Lightspeed *500
Warp 7: Lightspeed *800
Warp 8: Lightspeed *1000
Warp 9: Lightspeed *2000/*3000
Warp 9.5: Lightspeed *10,000
Warp 10: You cannot reach Warp 10.

[Kadste]

While doing some research on the Warp scales, I noticed that there were differences in the scales over time. I have not not been able to find any documentation on why theses changes were made. Maybe we are supposed to believe as time goes on the definition and formula just gets refined. This has happened many times in our past. Our temperature scales have been changed and updated with better research and better formuals to explain them. Not much available documentation on this topic as well. You have to dig really deep to find exact explanations on the why and how. Maybe Warp Scales are like this to.

I do remember, though, that where was always an exponential increase (warp 5 is 25 times the speed of light) plus some other factor used in calculating the warp factor. It seems to be ths other factor that changes.

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In difficult ground, press-on;
In encircled ground, devise stratagems;
In death ground, fight.
Sun Tzu (circa 400 B.C.)

[dogscoff]

OK...

Many inconsistencies / illogicalities were introduced in The Original Series, back in the days when they couldn't give a long garlic fart for things like continuity or scientific plausibility. By the time The Next Generation came around, they realised what a bunch of pedantic freaks us sciffies are, and tried their best to straighten out as many inconsistencies and scientific nonsenses as possible without trashing the existing continuity.

For example, interstellar distances, speeds and such were often way off in TOS, and words like "sector" & "quadrant" were bandied about pretty much at random. In TNG, they fixed the definitions (ie quadrant= 1/4 of the galaxy, sector = smaller area of space which may hold many star systems.)

For data storage they made up the term "kiloquad", because they knew that if they used real terminology (ie Gigabytes) then by 1996 the Enterprise-D's computer would look as advanced as a Commodore 64.

As for warp speeds, in TOS warp speeds were pretty much made up as they went along. The maximum for the TOS enterprise was about 8 or 9 I think, but in some episodes it acheived more, sometimes upwards of warp 14, by means of unexpected alien intervention and so on. Some hardy fans made up various non-linear scales to fit around the shows, but they were convoluted and not particularly robust.

Then TNG came in, and they abandoned the old "system" and introduced the scale detailed below by Mephisto, where warp 10 would involve occupying every point in the universe simultaneously. This has been faithfully adhered to ever since. (TNG, DS9, VOY, although I can't comment on the new series)
It's also worth remembering that there are other, quicker ways to get about in Trek (Trans-warp conduits, wormholes, Q's finger)

*dogscoff steps back into his Trek closet and closes the door.

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/SE4 Code
Go to my meagre SEIV pages to generate your own code.

[This message has been edited by dogscoff (edited 01 October 2001).]

[geoschmo]

quote:

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Then TNG came in, and they abandoned the old "system" and introduced the scale detailed below by Mephisto, where warp 10 would involve occupying every point in the universe simultaneously. This has been faithfully adhered to ever since. (TNG, DS9, VOY, although I can't comment on the new series)
It's also worth remembering that there are other, quicker ways to get about in Trek (Trans-warp conduits, wormholes, Q's finger)

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All very resonable. I can say that the new series defineltey doesn't follw the TNG scale, for the reason I posted below. But that would make sense I guess since "Enterprise" is pre-TOS, it should not use the same scale as TNG for sure. So we can asume that there was a scientific consensus of some type between the years of the TOS and TNG that revised the warp scale. Logical.

However, I seem to recall some discrepancies even within the TNG and post TNG series. Can't remember specifically where, but I will try to find them. Not that it is particually important, other than to demonstrate the point that scales are mutable. But I think we are all in agreement on that.

Geo

Edit: In just a few minutes of looking I found one example from a TNG episode where the travled 4.5 light years at warp 2. They covered the distance in a few minutes. According to the TNG warp scale that distance and speed the trip would have taken months. I am sure there are more examples, that just the first one I found.

All this is not a complaint. Star Trek is one of my favorite shows. I think the inconsistancies just give the show character. They don't bother me at all. But that doesn't mean I ignore them. They are like little inside jokes that only us "pedantic scifie freaks" will get, which makes them that much funnier.

Geoschmo
Pedantic Scifie Freak Second Class


[This message has been edited by geoschmo (edited 01 October 2001).]

[dmm]

News Flash: Jesse Jackson has volunteered to mediate between Baron M. and Baal.

[Baron Munchausen]

quote:

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Originally posted by dogscoff:
OK...

Many inconsistencies / illogicalities were introduced in The Original Series, back in the days when they couldn't give a long garlic fart for things like continuity or scientific plausibility. By the time The Next Generation came around, they realised what a bunch of pedantic freaks us sciffies are, and tried their best to straighten out as many inconsistencies and scientific nonsenses as possible without trashing the existing continuity.

For example, interstellar distances, speeds and such were often way off in TOS, and words like "sector" & "quadrant" were bandied about pretty much at random. In TNG, they fixed the definitions (ie quadrant= 1/4 of the galaxy, sector = smaller area of space which may hold many star systems.)

For data storage they made up the term "kiloquad", because they knew that if they used real terminology (ie Gigabytes) then by 1996 the Enterprise-D's computer would look as advanced as a Commodore 64.

As for warp speeds, in TOS warp speeds were pretty much made up as they went along. The maximum for the TOS enterprise was about 8 or 9 I think, but in some episodes it acheived more, sometimes upwards of warp 14, by means of unexpected alien intervention and so on. Some hardy fans made up various non-linear scales to fit around the shows, but they were convoluted and not particularly robust.

Then TNG came in, and they abandoned the old "system" and introduced the scale detailed below by Mephisto, where warp 10 would involve occupying every point in the universe simultaneously. This has been faithfully adhered to ever since. (TNG, DS9, VOY, although I can't comment on the new series)
It's also worth remembering that there are other, quicker ways to get about in Trek (Trans-warp conduits, wormholes, Q's finger)

*dogscoff steps back into his Trek closet and closes the door.

---

What makes you think they give a garlic fart for consistency or plausibility now? Had you heard that the scripts were written 'formulaicly' with blank technobabble spaces filled as "TECH" until the 'tech consultants' turn came to work over the script and make up technical jargon to let the story work the way the writers want it to? Paramount has never, ever cared anything for consistency or plausibility. In many ways, Trek on tv and movies is the opposite of SciFi. Technial jargon is added as decoration on a soap opera. It's only in the novels that much real SciFi occurs.

As for warp speed scales, the old "Star Fleet Technical Reference" from the days before TNG even started up said that warp speed cubed was the multiple of light speed for that warp factor. Then for TNG they changed it to something much more complex. Some of the formulas given here might be correct or might not. I can't remember anymore. Not that Paramount ever took it's own 'sanctioned' publications into account when writing, though. Yeah, on the old scale warp 4.5 (which seems to be their cruising maximum -- you cannot run an engine full-out for days and weeks) would be about 91 times the speed of light, so 4 days journey would be just about one light year. The Klingon homeworld has got to be further away than that, so those 'tech consultants' must have just been called in at the Last minute again to insert words here and there rather than really examine the script. Someone in the writing dept. must have decided that travel time for dramatic purposes. If the real travel time was used, week and months, then great stories about galactic events become much more difficult to cram into a 1 hour show. You do have to wonder, if other star systems were that easil accessible, why humanity would sit around and do nothing just because the Vulcans didn't think they were ready. Entire empires just DAYS away? Cripes. They must have been really intimidated by those 'parental' Vulcans...

[This message has been edited by Baron Munchausen (edited 01 October 2001).]

[Baal]

quote:

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Originally posted by Baron Munchausen:
Baal:

Sorry, but people in this culture do nasty things like remember details, and compare and contrast shows with one another. It's pop culture, not religion. Although, FYI, I feel I have the right to discuss, compare, and criticize religions, too. (I would keep that to approriate forums, of course.) If you don't like disagreement and criticism then maybe you should move to Iran or Afghanistan. You will find everyone properly respectful of every sort of authority there, because they get murdered if they aren't. I hope you are ready to convert to the appropriate fundamentalist sect of Islam.

I don't know why you've got such a burr up your arse over a tv show, but there's absolutely nothing you can do to stop the discussion. Everyone has a right to have an opinon, unless their opinion involves depriving others of their right to an opinion. It's call pluralism. If you can't live with that in regard to this tv show, you'd best not click on this thread anymore. So if you won't take a humorous suggestion then take a direct warning: GO AWAY. If you continue abusing everyone who dares to touch your holy tv show then you will soon be joining our friend LCC in the outer darkness.


[This message has been edited by Baron Munchausen (edited 01 October 2001).]

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Maybe I'll just do that, and then I'll hijack a plane and fly it into your house/family. Or better yet maybe you should move to Afgahnistan so the US military can bomb you to death when we decide to kill all those Afgans/Taliban ffreaks.

I merely stated my opinion on criticism and you come back and insult me. Don't insult me anymore, and I won't insult you. Unlike LCC I can control myself but I will respond to your insults.


Geoschmo:

I have only responded to the Baron. I stated an opinion and he made fun of it. Harshly I might add (from my POV). I would not mind being booted from the forum if it meant that Baron went with me. He provoked me afterall. It would be interesting to see if we both go.

I'm going to be leaving this forum for a while anyway so no need to tell Richard to boot me.


suicide_junkie:

Yes, I do take what I say seriously. I'm not going to edit the Posts, but I'm not going to post in this thread anymore either.

[This message has been edited by Baal (edited 01 October 2001).]