Conceptual Balance Mod 5.4

[PDF]

Re Flying boots up to A2 : this is IMHO a very bad decision : to me it's not a balance issue if everyone and his mother gets cheap Flying Boots, it will become one with a mod that restrict them this way..
As a result, only the already-powerful Air nations will have easy access to Flying Boots, letting the other ones on the ground, whereas they're already lacking from less mobility !!!

I'm sad to say that, but it looks like this mod is going overboard : Magic items mod makes useful stuff get nerfed whatever the balance effect is, and practically nothing gets any better.
Yet real balance issues are either not really addressed (ID/AD and Bane Lords still dominate mid-late game, still noone never summons crap-drakes), or even worsened (ah the Vine Ogres are *better* now !! Get the factory rollling !!)..

[quantum_mechani]

PDF said:
Re Flying boots up to A2 : this is IMHO a very bad decision : to me it's not a balance issue if everyone and his mother gets cheap Flying Boots, it will become one with a mod that restrict them this way..
As a result, only the already-powerful Air nations will have easy access to Flying Boots, letting the other ones on the ground, whereas they're already lacking from less mobility !!!

I'm sad to say that, but it looks like this mod is going overboard : Magic items mod makes useful stuff get nerfed whatever the balance effect is, and practically nothing gets any better.
Yet real balance issues are either not really addressed (ID/AD and Bane Lords still dominate mid-late game, still noone never summons crap-drakes), or even worsened (ah the Vine Ogres are *better* now !! Get the factory rollling !!)..

Just so we're clear, look at the readme, how many things got improved vs. how many things got nerfed?

Indeed SCs are still powerful in the mid and late game, I don't see any around that and still have a use for 90% of items. With drakes, I actually see them used quite a bit now, not in the the mid and late much, but that is not what they were intended to be. Vine ogres are not, in my opinion, better or worse. They make better shields than ever, but now have another weakness. Additionally, a lot of other nature summons were improved, making ogres not so much of a no-brainer.

With flying boots, I think putting them at a2 has a number of positive points. A bit harder to do SCs, and less in my opinion unthematic, with as you say everyone and their mother using them. I don't believe it is enough to really tip the balance in favor of air nations, particularly compared to the base game where they have easy wrathing, false horrors and a cheaper staff of storms.

[Turin]

I think that the problem with the vine ogre isn´t the vine ogre himself, but rather the ivy kings. I doubt anyone complains about precious n3 mages forging an ivy crown and then using their time getting 2 ogres per turn. Especially when you compare them to lamias.

The ivy king on the other hand doubles that efficiency and is already a bargain summon. A very high hp, no encumbrance n3 mage for only 20 gems is really sweet.

Regarding the drakes, I find all of them to costly with the exception of the cave drake, which makes an excellent tank. The others should drop to 6 gems in price.

As for Scs/thugs, the nerf to lifedrain weapons makes them a bit less dominant, Ice and arch devils are fine now imho, but banelords are still to cheap. I would raise the price to 20 gems.

[quantum_mechani]

Turin said:
I think that the problem with the vine ogre isn´t the vine ogre himself, but rather the ivy kings. I doubt anyone complains about precious n3 mages forging an ivy crown and then using their time getting 2 ogres per turn. Especially when you compare them to lamias.

The ivy king on the other hand doubles that efficiency and is already a bargain summon. A very high hp, no encumbrance n3 mage for only 20 gems is really sweet.

Regarding the drakes, I find all of them to costly with the exception of the cave drake, which makes an excellent tank. The others should drop to 6 gems in price.

As for Scs/thugs, the nerf to lifedrain weapons makes them a bit less dominant, Ice and arch devils are fine now imho, but banelords are still to cheap. I would raise the price to 20 gems.

I actually don't see the Ivy Kings as so supremely useful, most of the time I prefer lamia queens.

The cave drake is indeed a nice tank, and the ice drake sees quite a bit of action too. The fire drake not so much, because of alchemy, but still used sometimes. The wyvern is actually still pretty bad, particularly compared to black hawks, I will probably improve it slightly next version.

Bane lords I have seen a lot fewer of since they went to 15 gems, together with life drain nerfs. Now it is mostly just the uniques, pretenders and later on tartartains that become army crushers.

[PDF]

Turin said:
I think that the problem with the vine ogre isn´t the vine ogre himself, but rather the ivy kings. I doubt anyone complains about precious n3 mages forging an ivy crown and then using their time getting 2 ogres per turn. Especially when you compare them to lamias.

The ivy king on the other hand doubles that efficiency and is already a bargain summon. A very high hp, no encumbrance n3 mage for only 20 gems is really sweet.

Regarding the drakes, I find all of them to costly with the exception of the cave drake, which makes an excellent tank. The others should drop to 6 gems in price.

As for Scs/thugs, the nerf to lifedrain weapons makes them a bit less dominant, Ice and arch devils are fine now imho, but banelords are still to cheap. I would raise the price to 20 gems.

About Ivy Kings and Ogres, it's exactly the problem.
And Ivy Kings should *not* be able to "reproduce" so easily, so have N2 instead of 3 and cost a little more.
Ogres should be back to their base stats and costs 2 or 3 gems.
I don't see any Drakes in my games, and IMHO they should cost 4 to 6, no more. Who'll care to have such high-cost, one-per-summoning, sort of critters except in the very early game - where gems are quite scarce ?

ID/AD are still very powerful, and too easy to get by non blood nations, I suggest to make them B4W3/B4F3.
Also Devils are still too strong : "real" devils should have some less HP (32, like a Jotun) and morale 15 for all kind of devils, 18 still makes them rather unbreakable.

Maybe I'm going to make my own mod ...

[quantum_mechani]

PDF said:

About Ivy Kings and Ogres, it's exactly the problem.
And Ivy Kings should *not* be able to "reproduce" so easily, so have N2 instead of 3 and cost a little more.
Ogres should be back to their base stats and costs 2 or 3 gems.
I don't see any Drakes in my games, and IMHO they should cost 4 to 6, no more. Who'll care to have such high-cost, one-per-summoning, sort of critters except in the very early game - where gems are quite scarce ?

ID/AD are still very powerful, and too easy to get by non blood nations, I suggest to make them B4W3/B4F3.
Also Devils are still too strong : "real" devils should have some less HP (32, like a Jotun) and morale 15 for all kind of devils, 18 still makes them rather unbreakable.

Maybe I'm going to make my own mod ...

Hmm... I'm not sure I understand, I thought you were criticizing the mod for being _too_ extreme?

I don't know why you don't see drakes in your games, probably play to big of maps? When you are in conflict around turn 20 or before they are highly useful.

Your suggested nerf to the ivy king would nerf him to oblivion, and the ogres would be rarely if ever used.

[Graeme Dice]

PDF said:
About Ivy Kings and Ogres, it's exactly the problem.

Why do so many people think that vine ogres are so dangerous when they are only slightly more useful than the infinite skeletons from raise skeleton?

ID/AD are still very powerful, and too easy to get by non blood nations, I suggest to make them B4W3/B4F3.

A SC without effective lifedraining can be taken out quite easily by your elite national troops. The devil commanders can never be made 0 encumbrance, so they will always tire out eventually.

[quantum_mechani]

Graeme Dice said:

A SC without effective lifedraining can be taken out quite easily by your elite national troops. The devil commanders can never be made 0 encumbrance, so they will always tire out eventually.

Not quite, properly equipped (including regeneration and reinvigorating), few national troops alone would be capable of defeating them.

[shovah]

hordes of mindblast ......

[Graeme Dice]

quantum_mechani said:
Not quite, properly equipped (including regeneration and reinvigorating), few national troops alone would be capable of defeating them.

You would have some trouble covering both regeneration and reinvigoration without leaving them open to elemental or MR based attacks attacks though.