Super snipers???

DRG · #1 October 5th, 2005, 02:40 PM

There are numerous examples I have read over the years of a small handful of "snipers" holding up entire companies ( or even large formations )in NW Europe in the last year(s) of WW2. Troops don't like being sniped at by unseen enemies and hearing a shot then a call for a medic then another shot and another call for a medic can and has caused advances to grind to a halt. I know that in the game *sometimes* dealing with snipers is a PITA. Sometimes in RL they are.

Don

narwan · #2 October 5th, 2005, 02:56 PM

I recall an gurkha trooper who got the VC for holding off close to a company of japanese infantry with his Lee Enfield, while being seriously wounded. He wasn't a 'sniper', just really good with his rifle and extremely brave. Many dozens of japanese became casualties of his accurate fire (and the handgrenades he kept throwing back at them). That was in the Imphal campaign in burma in '44 if I remember correctly. The japanese were dumb enough to keep trying a frontal attack on his elevated dug in position without much supportive fire.

Snipers in SP are tricky to deal with, but they only become unbalancing if used in unrealisiticly large quantities.
Don't just storm at them but supress them (or of you can't spot them, their hex) before closing in for the kill. Dropping off an infantry unit next to their hex usually reveals their presence if they fired off a couple of shots that turn. Rifles used at distance 4 or less have the best chance of taking out a sniper (at least that's the way it was in earlier versions and I assume it's still the same now).

Artur · #3 October 5th, 2005, 03:17 PM

I agree with the method of suppressing them. However I experienced that a foreign legion sniper performed well even if he was located in an open terrain hex and shot at by tanks many times. Is that realistic? I know French Foreign legion has very high morale and experience but isn't this too much?

I also agree about making more difference within the snipers. What I experienced is that even a 7 points marksman is more effective than a machine gun. Is that realistic? I really don't know...

Artur.

narwan · #4 October 5th, 2005, 08:25 PM

Tank main guns and mg's aren't all that effective against snipers so I'm not surprised. Open terrain still offers lot's of places for a single man to hide or find cover. It's not a completely flat field 50 metres across. And a 1-foot rise in terrain or obstacle of that height can give enough cover for one man. And a foreign legion sniper (or any superelite sniper) can be expected to know his hiding.

I don't like snipers because they are too powerful, I don't like them because it can get to be a drag taking them out. The occasional one in a game I don't mind, but not too many please.
I've rarely encountered an enemy sniper though doing his point cost worth of damage. But it takes an effort and certain techniques to take them out at low cost, hence the drag I mentioned cause these take time and can seriously slow down a game.

Narwan

Siddhi · #5 October 6th, 2005, 12:32 PM

reg. sniper stories, not only have i heard many of those too but i have been under sniper fire myself (bosnia bihac in 94) and have seen how in RL people react - basically firing in the general direction of the persumed sniper. in one particular case i was two streets away from bihac hospital, which got a lot of attention, close to an experienced BiH 2.Corps group when a couple of rounds started impacting off the sidewalk around them. the guys just started walking and shooting - from the shoulder btw - in a particular direction. after about a couple of mags a piece there didnt' seem to be any more incoming fire - although all the cordite in the air might have had something to do with it. when i asked what they were shooting at they pointed at low rise about .8k out of town, saying "well that's where i would be anyway". moral: experienced troops can deal with long-ranged snipers.

in game terms, the way to deal with unseen fire is to hit x and plaster the expected hex blindly - it would be nice (not, DRG, a must) - if the AI could do something differently. i often raise the searching ratings to compensate for this.

narwan · #6 October 6th, 2005, 01:43 PM

True, but 'dealing with' in that example probably means forcing the sniper to relocate or pack it in for the day. It's unlikely to have actually hit him.

If you do want to take him out you have to plaster his area (hex) and get some footsoldiers (preferably with rifles) close to him at the same time. These have the thnakful job of spotting him (which usually means the sniper can spot them too) and 'dispatching him to elsewhere'.

Sniper in RL tend to be very conservative with their own life, they don't take many big chances and don't go on firing till they're taken out. They tend to get out when they suspect they may have been located (which isn't the same as spotted in the game!). Sniper units in the game rarely act like that. At least not in my experience, they seem to have 'last man standing' as their motto. Which is one of the reasons I try to minimise their presence in my games. I don't think they are modelled very accurately, which is probably due to the game specifics and mechanics (for example no officers or tankcommanders, etc to specifically target).

Narwan

PlasmaKrab · #7 October 7th, 2005, 07:03 AM

Narwan, actually many (if not all) units in the game go for last-man stands. The only way you can have IA-controlled forces to back off is to force them into retreat, and since snipers generally have the highest morale rating, they tend to be the last men standing (instead of running away, I mean). Now that works better with 'integrated' troop-level marksmen, once more, but the game has just been designed from the beginning to account for troops standing up to the last man or running away, and we have to deal with it. Only you, player, have the power to order backing away.

narwan · #8 October 7th, 2005, 10:34 AM

Sorry, I was referring to human vs human play, not vs the AI. It's human opponents who tend to use snipers in 'last man standing' tactics too. I've rarely if ever seen someone withdraw a located sniper and redeploy him elsewhere.

In RL snipers have a lot more leeway in what to do and how to do it than regular units. When confronted with opposition, they tend to go away. Regular units have their orders and are supposed to carry them out, not second-guess them. Well, you know what I mean.

Narwan

Siddhi · #9 October 7th, 2005, 10:43 AM

a lower moral rating will usually suffice, i wonder however what would happen if there was a high rally rating at the same time - would it cancel out, or would you get that highly elusive -retreat then rally effect? would be great

PlasmaKrab · #10 October 8th, 2005, 06:35 AM

Guys consider that a sniper's "freedom of movement" when trying to escape detection and remain pointed on a target, can very well go unnoticed in 50m-hexes. Same with tanks or airplanes and invisible "evasion manoeuvers".
However, consider that even with a relatively high speed (generally 6) it will be hard for a human player to relocate a sniper team under fire (or nearly so) without losing either his positional advantage or the sniper or both.