Super snipers???

[Artur]

I am glad I can read so many interesting posts in this thread.
Let me add one more thing. I recently attended a lecture about the US military operation in Fallujah 2004. There it was told that snipers caused the hightest number of casualties on both sides. That says something.

Reading all the posts above I guess the best solution would be to seriously increase the price of the snipers. (Maybe also make the rout a bit sooner.) Don,Andy your thoughts.

Artur.

[DRG]

My feelings are that snipers are SUPPOSED to be a PITA and their cost is just fine the way they are.

The bargin basement US "sniper" with no "fire control" or "RF"
or "vision" gear is an unadjusted 12 points. If you are buying infantry that the same price as an entire squad ( if you want to check I'm looking at the following units in MOBHack
414
416
417
419
431
432

Those are just basic rifle squads that have a 12 base cost in MOBHack so all this will cost a bit more in the game but so will the sniper.

Now..... that 12 cost sniper is the low end of things. He's not really going to do much and he costs the price of a squad. Do you really think he needs to be worth more? The next sniper up the ladder costs 28 points and all he has is 5 FC and 5 RF..... hardly a terrorist and he costs more than two squads. By the time you work your way up what could be called a super sniper in the "Hvy Abn Sniper" ( unit 252 ) who has full vision gear and really IS something to worry about he costs an unadjusted 129 points. ( 155 points by the time you add in moral and experience modifiiers ) Even at 129 points that's the cost of 10 regular squads. It's nearly 13 at 155 points.

If you are betting the mortgage on the results of one game do you buy 13 squads or one two man team?

Admittedly most snipers that could be considered a PITA cost around 45-48 points. That's still 3 - 4 squads of men or, in the case of artillery.... the price of 1 US 155mm LW FH. Should ONE sniper be worth more than a 155 FH??

I'll give you a test to run. June 1970 USA vs USA ( call this a MILES test in training ) on one side by a HQ and three of the best snipers you can get for that era then in opposition buy as many "Rifle Platoon VN" as you can. You will have most likely 10 squads ( plus a HQ ). Put them all on a 40 x 40 map and let me know who wins. I'm not betting on the snipers unless they are in skilled human hands ( and that would be long shot odds )

Here something else to consider. A 1970 era US off map 155 battery costs 360 points in the game. ( 60 rounds per gun ) That gives you two platoons of 155's and 120 rounds of ammuntion. That about 20 turns of shooting. ( I used up 9 rounds per battery in my test in 3 turns ) 360 divided by 20 is 18 points per shoot. The best sniper for the era costs 42 points ( these are unadjusted base OOB costs )so for the price of just over two turns of 155 fire you can buy one (1) sniper. I'll take the 155's any day.

So no, I don't think snipers need to be more costly. What I think is players need to review their tactics for dealing with snipers

Don

[DRG]

OK, here's another test for those of you that think snipers are too cheap. It's a variation on the challenge I suggested in the previous email with the three top of the line snipers only this time you take three snipers and your HQ , same era ( 1970 ) on the same sized map then set the battle up so that you buy for the AI all the "Rifle Platoon VN" you can buy when the battle is set to the AI player 2 advance but with the battle set to AI P2 deploy. You will be fighting your three snipers and HQ against 23 squads and a HQ. Let me know if you think the Snipers are still too cheap. Everyone who thinks the snipers are too powerful needs to try this before replying. If I read these posts correctly those three snipers should have NO problem containing those 23 squads.

Have fun. I don't think most players could contain ten squads with those three snipers let alone the 23 their cost allows you to buy in opposition in this case

Don

[Artur]

Ok Ok Ok . If the cheapest sniper is worth a squad It's ok with me. Regarding US forces I guess that is all right..

What I tried is 1970 green vs red. I played with them a lot recently. There a normal inf squad is 9 pts while a sniper is 5 pts. I made a scenario where a platoon of red inf went against 7 Green snipers. The scenario had a 20X20 plain map - I know it favours the snipers but of course you never put a sniper in dense terrain...

I played from both sides and won from both sides. However with the snipers it was more easy for me even though the cheap snipers were aiming awfully. The reds simply routed off the map or when they won the took serious casualties.

Artur.

[narwan]

For the record, I don't think snipers are too cheap. On the low end they may be (the 5 - 7 point snipers) but certainly not those with special (FC, RF and/or vision) equipment.

As I said earlier, snipers rarely do their points worth in damage to opponents. They do force you to certain tactics to deal with them. And that's the whole 'annoying' thing with snipers (not a criticism on the game model! just my feeling on snipers!), it takes relatively a lot of time and troops to take them out. If they act on their own, that's usually not that big a problem. But if you time their use right and use them in combination with other units/attacks, they can be a dangerous distraction because for example those units won't be where you really need them at that time.
Now if you take out an expensive sniper with them, the point cost of that sniper often makes up for a lot. But until you actually spot him, you don't know if it's an expensive one or a very cheap one. So those very cheap snipers may not achieve a lot in damage inflicted, but they can achieve tactical effects way beyond their 'real' value. Off course, just as with counter-sniper operations, it's not easy to pull off these stunts. But if and when you can, snipers can be a big force multiplier. Which comes (partly) from their tendency to stand firm (and be used as completely expendable, almost suicidal, units).

Narwan