Semi-OT: The Icaran Empire Preview (the book one)

[Starhawk]

Well in reference to the military removing nobles, Vice or Star Admirals are actually given rank "Noble" which is why William Ross and Yu Lin suddenly went from "William Ross" to "Lord Admiral" and Yu Lin became "Admiral Lady".
The military is given limited judiciary power over nobles when it comes to them disobeying the armed forces advice leading to the deaths of civilians. OR if they begin forming a private military. Both of which are the fast lane to the end of a rope.

As far as the "religious freedoms" you notice I said "Legal Religions" right the only really Legal Religions are "The Path" (i.e state religion) and Buddihsm (and that's mainly because the ESS had to be incorporated and since the bulk of Asia is Buddist you can't outlaw their religion wholesale).

There are small enclaves of other religions such as Hindu and Islam but they are few and far between and tend to avoid government scutiny by not getting involved in politics or anything that would make them look like a threat.


Crusade:

often Crusade Any of the military expeditions undertaken by European Christians in the 11th, 12th, and 13th centuries to recover the Holy Land from the Muslims.
A holy war undertaken with papal sanction.
A vigorous concerted movement for a cause or against an abuse. See Synonyms at campaign.

I am sort of opting for #3's description since #1 and #2 are irrelevent as the Icarans took over Rome long before the formation of the papacy so "No smoka, no popa".

If you have any other ideas for what to call these wars of conquest (and no not wars of conquest ) then I'd be more then happy to read them.


Oh and as far as government loyalty and the like goes well I see it this way Icara is meaner then the US but nicer than Nazi Germany and Japan (WWII) and quite frankly most of the Islamic states and if people can happily jump in line with these regimes I'm pretty sure there would be relative stability for Icara.


Oh and BTW I worked on a rough "Imperial Timeline" as in tracking "Dynasties".

It's pretty much like this:

(Dawn of History)
Icaran Principality (destroyed in effect by Sparta)

Icaran Empire (Effectively ends in the year the first Lunar colony is founded)

Icaran Solar Empire (slight political reforms to deal with non-Terra provinces) (later destroyed by UN forces and forced to evacuate Sol, first encounter with an unstable warp point)

New Icaran Empire (Icara, Norvor system- effectively ceases to exist when the ESS population is finally merged)

Icaran Royal Empire (What we see in the era of my fan fic, lasts a thousand years and effectively ceases to exist for reasons I wont state here)

Second Icaran Royal Empire (Reformed in Novor on the fortress world of New Icara effectively reunifies the Empire over the next fifteen centuries)


Basically yeah "Icara" has survived millenia and by time we hit the Second Royal Empire we are looking at about 9,000 years. But the Empire has changed time and again.

[Hunpecked]

Nobles: Ah, the military has authority over nobles in the military . OK.

Religious "freedom" and "legal" religions: In other words, everyone has the "freedom" to share the state's approved beliefs, or else. Sounds like an analogue of George Orwell made it into this alternate reality.

Crusade: It's not the concept, but the word itself that I question. The word is derived from specific actions that probably didn't occur in the Icaran reality (although I notice Islam seems to have slipped in). The best translation to 21st Century English may indeed be "crusade", but the Icaran term itself would probably have nothing to do with Christian symbolism, i.e. a cross. As an alternative I'd suggest "Wars of Liberation", as in "The Phong Liberation" and so on.

[Starhawk]

Hmmm that has a ring to it "Phong Liberation" I like that

Well yeah considering Icarans don't speak English I guess translations from terminology may not even carry over into English.

As far as Islam "slipping" in well Icara took generations to reach the Mideast so the locals had plenty of time to get into the "swing" of things with Islam before Icara showed up and quashed the local governments.

As far as the "freedom" to beleive in the state religions well like I said as long as you stay under the "religious radar" your not messed with, but if you run around spouting fundamentalist Islam (as is currently seen in the extremeist arabs) you'd end up on the wrong side of a stun batton before being dragged in to have a chat with a shadow dagger. Cults are just plain hunted down by the local authorities and it's pretty much up to the Provincial government what they do with the members, though Imperial law dictates the immediate execution of the leader.

[edit]Oh and forgive my ignorance but who is Orwell? is he the guy who wrote Animal farm?[/edit]

[dogscoff]

Oh and forgive my ignorance but who is Orwell? is he the guy who wrote Animal farm?

*gawp*

OK, ignorance forgiven.

Yes he is the guy who wrote Animal Farm. He is also the guy who wrote 1984.

Orwell is very important, in literary terms, particularly in the kind of speculative alternate-reality totalitarian-regime-construction & maintenence fiction you are looking at. I'd throughly recommend you read some of his stuff. (by "some of his stuff" I mean "at least 1984") Even if you find nothing in his works that you feel inspired by for your own writing, at least you'll understand what people are talking about when they compare Icara to Oceania. And they will, if your own writing is any good.

About Gerorge Orwell.
Don't read the wikipedia entries on the actual books, BTW. They are full of spoilers. Read the books instead/ first.

1984 is not only a monumentally important book: It's also a bloody good book. In fact it's one of the most gripping novels I've ever read, and I've read a lot of them. Animal farm is fascinating as a historical metaphor but as a novel it doesn't compare to 1984. It's still well worth a read, but it's not 1984.

The film 1984 (the one with John Hurt and the Eurythmics soundtrack) is a respectable interpretation of the story, but read the book first. The film will make you go cold and probably give you nightmares, but the book will leave you awake night after night, staring into bleak nothingness at 3am as you sit up in bed hugging your knees, shivering, rocking and babbling incoherently.

Aside: My older brother Dave signs all his text messages to me "1984". Big Brother. Get it?

[Atrocities]

Oh and forgive my ignorance but who is Orwell? is he the guy who wrote Animal farm?

I tried to read 1984 in 1994 but found it to be to... how shall I put it... boring to read at the time. I think I read like two chapters and never went back. Not to worry I also did that with one of Tom Clancy's books....

[Strategia_In_Ultima]

Bad AT! Bad!

Indeed the word "Crusade" is derived from "Crux" meaning "Cross" which is a symbol for Christianity. Like Hunpecked said, something along the lines of "Liberation" (or, in the case of aliens (or "Xenos") "Annihilation") would be better suited.

While reading 1984, it put me in a dark mood, but I was very happy to have read it. I can really recommend it.

[Starhawk]

Well I don't know if Icara is as evil minded as people seem to say 1984's "State" was as the government of Icara honestly does allow a mostly free life. And they also beleive they are doing what's best for humanity.

From what I've heard of the 1984 society it's pretty much "everyone's a mindless drone" and the state dictates absolutely every aspect of life, right down to what you wear.

[Alneyan]

Perhaps you would be interested by Huxley's Brave New World instead? It is pretty much at the other side of the spectrum as far as dystopias, and might be an utopia for some people (whereas I can't think of anyone wanting to live in 1984).

[El_Phil]

As hunpecked said, coming along nicely. Still short a few checks and balances and is heading a bit 1984, not so much the grimness as the mental indoctrination. And the determination to keep the working class in power of course

My problem with the divine right has been covered: Religious freedom. Now if its 'freedom' as in your free to worship want you want, but your also free to be killed that's a problem as supressing people's religion does piss them of and cause civil wars. If it's actual freedom then by the nature of things some religions will not have the Praetor as a saintly figure. This is also a problem.

In fact I'd say Buddhism is fairly incompatible with this system. Apart from their general dislike of dogmas (such as the Praetor is saintlike) they also like each individual to follow their own path of meditation. This is dangerously like free thinking. Finally, and this is the biggie, they shouldn't kill or be associated in any way with killing, no matter how justified and neccessary the killing may be. Given that one of the main pillars of the Icaran goverment is killing dissidents or rebels that's a problem.

[dogscoff]

[Buddhists]shouldn't kill or be associated in any way with killing, no matter how justified and neccessary the killing may be. Given that one of the main pillars of the Icaran goverment is killing dissidents or rebels that's a problem.

This is true, but Buddhists do manage to live in all kinds of war-torn and violent parts of the world, under governments with unspeakable stains upon their consiences.

The thing about Buddhism is that it's incredibly diverse. The form we see in the west is derived largely from very 'pure' (and do I realise how prickly that word is in this context) forms of Tibetan and Japanese Buddhism straight out of the monastaries, that focus very tightly upon meditation, non-deification of the Buddha and the quest for enlightenment.
(Although naturally the rigorous and demanding monkish disciplines have been softened up a fair bit to accomodate our western lifestyles)

However, Buddhism as it is practised by the vast majority of Asian buddhists is a far more day-to-day belief system. You pray to Buddha. you have a little statue of him on the dashboard of your tuk-tuk to ward off evil and bad drivers. You go to the temple once a week to pray, and on special days or if you want something in particular you go and offer flowers or money or whatever. It has merged and mixed and blurred with various other local religions, so that to me it looks more like Hinduism or Sikhism or some other ism I don't even know the name of.

My point is that it's very versatile- it's as versatile as the people who follow it- and like any religion (technically, I know Buddhism isn't a religion but yadda yadda yadda) it will mold and evolve and hybridise itself to fit into whatever niches it can find in its environment (ie society). Just look at the way Western Christianity has absorbed all the pagan faiths that stood in its way as it swept across Europe, and the various pre-christian cults the Romans had to incorporate into it. The western Christianity of today is actually a diverse mongrel mixture of a dozen or more different religions/ faiths/ cults/ beliefs. Compare it to African Christianity, which often incorporates all kinds of local witch-doctor voodoo stuff, or to Judaism which, even though it is effectively Christianity's 'mother' faith, is barely recognisable as such except in shared scripture.

What this means for Starhawk is that after a few dozen generations, Buddhism (or at least mainstream buddhism) in his world would probably look like some kind of bizarre Icarist/buddhist hybrid that our buddhists would have difficulty recognising, and the Icarans would be more than happy to allow.