Sugestions for OOB changes for 2.5 Supplement

[JaM]

1. T72M1 armor scheme is wrong. T-72M1 is warsaw pact version of soviet T-72A tank. Armor should be similar with T-72A. Today it is better than T-72B! T-72B was the first soviet T-72 for front line units.All older T-72 were used as second line tanks. (All T-72 divisions were deployed in Czechoslovakia, Hungary, etc...Frontline divisions had T-80B,T-64B and from 1987-89 T-72B and T-80U).
2.Czech T-72M4 has lower protection of hull than base T-72M1.Why? T-72M4 is a upgraded T-72M1, so armor composition should be the same.(Same with Polish PT-91,Slovak T-72M2 Moderna etc...)
3.Syrian T-72M1S has AT-11 in 1985! It is too early for AT-11. Even russian had them in 1987,so how they have it? Only T-72S is export tank with missile system, but it wasnt avaiable in 1985,but in early 90 (1992-93) and who knows if Syria bought those tanks and when...
4.T-72B1 is tank without guiding system for AT-11 missile.THose tanks were awaiable in late 1985,So T-72B1M is model without AT-11 too.

I know that i posted those points once, but i cant help myself...

Keep up good work!

[blazejos]

I and Theodor during develop of our own OOB founds bugs in PT-91 Twardy thema. Sugestion what should be changed and why?

Polish OOB

- unit 018
name: PT91 => PT-91 Twardy ("hard" real polish name)
cost: 353 => 362
EW: 0 => 4 (they have new better than in T-72M1 SKO Drawa "fire control system" and electronics system "SSC-1 Obra" )
Weapon3: 12.7 WKM-B AAMG => 12.7 NSVT AAMG because WKM-B was used after 2000 year (Modification of NSVT for NATO standarts)
Steel and Heat: armour copied from T-72M1 (because firsts PT-91 Twardy was a improvment of this tanks so armour should be not worse than in this tank no info about new armour so we think is the same)
Reactive armour "ERAWA"
TF 14 => 4
TS 14 => 4
Top 12 => 2 (was not so good in the firsts model)
Smoke Dischargers 1=>4 ( On the foto you can see many smoke granade lanuchers on the both side of turent)

- unit 409
changed like before in unit018: name , EW , Weapon 3 , Steel and Heat armour , Smoke Dischargers
cost: 357 => 367
Reactive armour "ERAWA-2"
TF 15=>5
TS 15=>5
Top 12=>4 (was beter than in years 95-96 but we thing not so good)

- unit 408
changed like before in unit409: name , EW ,Steel and Heat armour and reactive armour , Smoke Dischargers
cost: 381 => 391
Weapon2: 7.62mm PKT CMG => UKM-2000 CMG (New polish Tank MG deep modification of PKT for NATO standarts in service after year 2000)

- unit 010
changed like before in unit408: EW , Weapon2 , Steel and Heat armour.
name: PT-91 Improved => PT-91 Twardy (we thing the name should be the same in futuure)
cost: 336 => 386
Vision 30 => 40 (should be not worse than in the same early models)
FC 50 => 35 ( we don't hear about plans of construction new SKO " Fire control system" so should be use the old)
Reactive armour:
HF 5 => 15
HS 5 => 15 ( We thing "ERAWA-2" Reactive armour" should be improvment in future meaby "ERAWA-3"?)
Smoke Dischargers 1=>4 ( In future should have more smoke granade lanuchers)

- unit 009 (insted of "germanized" PT-91 we sugest normal PT-91 Twardy we thing "germanization" plans was not serious)
changed like before in unit410: Weapon2 , FC , Steel and Heat armour.
name: PT-2001 Twardy => PT-91 Twardy
Avaible From: 1 112 => 1 110
cost: 415 => 378
Weapon1: 120mm L44 WG01 => 125mm PO-1+ Gun
Reactive armour:
HF 15 => 5
HS 15 => 5 (That is old "ERAWA-2" not improvment model used in future)
ROF: 6 => 7 (not worst than in previous models)
Smoke Dischargers 1=>4 ( In future should have more smoke granade lanuchers)

- unit 222
That is normal PT-91 Twardy from years 97-100 with KMT-6 so all parameters should be changed like before in unit409: EW , Weapon 3 , Steel and Heat armour , Smoke Dischargers , TF , TS , Top
cost: 367 => 377
Weapon1: 125mm PO-1+ Gun => 125mm PO-1 Gun (older model schould be worse gun)
Avaible From: 1 100 => 1 97
Avaible to: 12 120 => 12 100

- The OOB forgoten about PT-91 KMT-6 from another years. I have the proposition after changes of parameters copy unit 408 that tank equip with KMT-6 for years 2001-2009 and the unit 010 should be good tank with KMT-6 in years 2010-2020. Unit 018 should be good for create tank with KMT-6 in years 95-96 so the OOB need three new Twardy tanks units with KMT-6 antimine device


Maylasia OOB

-unit 500

First bugs in weapon 104 in Maylasia OOB is named 125mm D81 Pol03 but that is 125mm PO-2 Gun from polish OOB all the parameters as the same but a bug in Maylasia OOB AP Penetration is 0 should be 32 like in polish OOB the name of weapon should be changed 125mm D81 Pol03=>125mm PO-2 Gun

The unit

name: PT-91Z => PT-91M (The bug in designation without Twardy because this label used be polish army only)
cost: 334 => 390 (compared to cost in polish OOB)
speed 20 => 21 (new engine improved from 780 Mechanical horse to 1000Mh)
EW: 0 => 4 ( Polish improvment "SSP-1 Obra-3" system)
FC: 30 => 40 (like in Leclerc)
RF: 14 => 22 (like in Leclerc)
Stabiliser 4 => 5 (like in Leclerc)
Smoke Dischargers 1=>4 (have more smoke granade lanuchers)
Weapon2: 7.62mm PKT CMG => 7.62 FN-MAG CMG (with this CMG should be produced can be taken from Belgium OOB weapon 067)
Weapon3: 12.7 NSVT AAMG => .50 Browng AAMG
Steel and Heat: armour copied from T-72M1 in polish OOB(because PT-91 Twardy was a improvment of this tanks so armour should be not worse than in this tank no info about new armour so we think is the same)
Reactive armour "ERAWA-2"
HF 4=>5
HS 4=>5
TF 4=>5
TS 4=>5
Top 2=>4 (should be like in polish OOB)



Plese write this proposition of changes is good explain and is good for implementation in path.




"Halo , Gentelmens after discusions we made changes especialy in Malesian PT-91"

[blazejos]

Small sugestion of changes in polish OOB

Polish army never used SKS carabine except a small representation unit.

After 1952 was in used AK-47 in poland know as AKM Rifle.
Propositions of changes weapon names:
- weapon 008
PMK Rifle => AKM Rifle

- weapon 029
PMKM Rifle => AKMS Rifle

So please change all units with SKS carabine to another weapon i thing the beast should be M1944 Rifle or M91/30 Rifle the both was in use from WW2 times.


- Metis ATGM is in use in polish Para units only from year 1984 and we thing should be to 2015

- Neva SC should be added self propeled SA-3 lanucher on T-54 chasis. In Years 92-94 old version and 1995-2020 after electronic modernisation

- Grom Team should have EW chnged 1=>3 (because based on 9M313 Igla-S and can't be worse than his ancestor

[DRG]

JaM said:
4.T-72B1 is tank without guiding system for AT-11 missile.THose tanks were awaiable in late 1985,So T-72B1M is model without AT-11 too.

Really?? There are a number of websites that disagree with that info including....


http://www.aeronautics.ru/archive/ar...es/t-72a_m.htm

T-72B1 This is the first T-72 with NDZ armor and externally identifiable with the considerably thickened turret frontal armor, this is referred to as the Super Dolly Parton. The SMT M1988 has eight smoke mortars on left side and has explosive reactive armor and larger gunner's night sight housing. The T-72B1 is fitted with the fire control system for the 9M119 Svir AT-11 SNIPER missile system.


http://www.taos-inc.com/atwpns.htm
AT-11 SNIPER Antitank Guided Missile

The 9K120 Svir/Refleks (AT-11 SNIPER) is a laser-beam riding, antitank missile launched from the main gun of a tank or antitank gun. It is the successor to the earlier radio-command guidance AT-8 SONGSTER. The AT-11 can be fired by the T-72B, T-72S, T-80B, T-80U, and T-90 main battle tanks,


Don

[Sewter]

Yes, it is true of what DRG reports. Here is more on the weapon:

"There are two versions of the 9K119 system, both using a virtually identical missile: the Refleks and the Svir. The Refleks is the version of the 9K119 used on the T-80U, T-80UD and T-90E tanks, while the Svir (`sniper') is the version used with the non-stabilised sights on the T-72B and T-72S tanks. The main difference between the two is the type of fire-control system used to guide the missiles. The Refleks uses a 9S517 automatic control unit with a laser emitter located within the gunner's primary sight, while the Svir is used with the separate 1K13 sight. The Refleks round has a range of 5,000 m, 1,000 m more than that of the Svir."

However, the deployment dates are interesting:

"It is understood that the Refleks entered service in 1984 and that the Svir entered service in 1994."

This information was found on Jane's Ammunition Handbook, which is well regarded, but does not mean it is total fact.

We may never know...

[Sewter]

Here is more on the tank guns deployed by the Russians. It will cover the different weapons:

"2A45 and 2A45M tank guns fitted to T-64 and early T-72 Main Battle Tanks (MBTs); 2A46 (D-81) and 2A46M (D-81M) tank guns fitted to T-64A and T-72 MBTs; 2A46M1 tank gun fitted to T-80U, T-80UD and T-90E MBTs; 2A75 gun on 2S25 self-propelled anti-tank gun; 2A45M Sprut-B towed anti-tank gun."

Here is the Kobra ATGM:

"The 9K112 Kobra was the first gun-launched guided missile system in the world. It was originally developed for the T-64B tank and was also known by the NATO codename AT-8 'Songster'. It was introduced into Soviet Army service during the mid-1970s. It is still restricted from export, although some marketing information appeared in 1998. The 9K112 Kobra system was later carried by the T-80 tank (each T-64B or T-80 carried four 9K112 missiles). By the mid-1980s, the 9K112 Kobra began to be supplemented by the 9M119 system (see separate entry). Unlike later 125 mm and other gun-launched guided missile systems, the 9K112 Kobra features rocket assistance and radio guidance.

There is some doubt as to whether the 9K112 is compatible with the autoloader of the T-72."

This info came from the same source as my above post. This is not intended on changing the game in anyway, but for those who want to use it towards changing their mobs, it may be useful. Use it wisely.

[JaM]

Ok, there are many total oposite info about rsian tanks. My info was from book "Tanks - Modern military vehicles" (Milos Soukup,Military academy Brno 1995) It is quite confusing, If T-72B1 is the "Super Dolly Parton" and T-72A is "Dolly Parton" what is the T-72B? With T-64B tanks, number "1" mean, that it dont have guiging system for missiles. Next confusing thing is, that russian never used for T-72B tank designation "V" for tanks with ERA. (every T-72B was equiped with it, some early models were without it, but later equiped).

[Amadeus]

Speaking of Soviet/Russian tanks, please notice that the T-80U was designed from start to be equipped with advanced ERA (Kontakt-5) there's no "early" T-80U with older ERA, as depicted in the game. And, while we're at it, consider also that T-72M and T-72M1 etc. were names used only for export tanks. As JaM said the corresponding Soviet variant was the T-72A. And it's not only a mere question of naming conventions, after the mid 80's, ERA was added to T-72A tanks creating thus the T-72AV variant that is missing in the game OOB.

Regards,

A.

[blazejos]

Gentelmens after discusions we made changes in PT-91 Twardy post. Please write what do you thig about this prop. of changes in path?

[pdoktar]

I agree with the differences in T-72 tanks in various oobs. For example why is finnish T-72M1 KE armor in front of 55 and 50? I doubt it seriously, compared to other oobs.

I understand that the oobs are made by different people at different times and some old ones has hanged on from spmbt v.1,5. But maybe it should be checked, because 10 points in frontal armor of a tank can make a life or death difference.

And the issue with the millions of variations of the good old (some say crappy) T-72. So maybe we have to settle (at least I have) to the differences, for some time to come.