Sugestions for OOB changes for 2.5 Supplement

[DRG]

JaM said:
4.T-72B1 is tank without guiding system for AT-11 missile.THose tanks were awaiable in late 1985,So T-72B1M is model without AT-11 too.

Really?? There are a number of websites that disagree with that info including....


http://www.aeronautics.ru/archive/ar...es/t-72a_m.htm

T-72B1 This is the first T-72 with NDZ armor and externally identifiable with the considerably thickened turret frontal armor, this is referred to as the Super Dolly Parton. The SMT M1988 has eight smoke mortars on left side and has explosive reactive armor and larger gunner's night sight housing. The T-72B1 is fitted with the fire control system for the 9M119 Svir AT-11 SNIPER missile system.


http://www.taos-inc.com/atwpns.htm
AT-11 SNIPER Antitank Guided Missile

The 9K120 Svir/Refleks (AT-11 SNIPER) is a laser-beam riding, antitank missile launched from the main gun of a tank or antitank gun. It is the successor to the earlier radio-command guidance AT-8 SONGSTER. The AT-11 can be fired by the T-72B, T-72S, T-80B, T-80U, and T-90 main battle tanks,


Don

[Sewter]

Yes, it is true of what DRG reports. Here is more on the weapon:

"There are two versions of the 9K119 system, both using a virtually identical missile: the Refleks and the Svir. The Refleks is the version of the 9K119 used on the T-80U, T-80UD and T-90E tanks, while the Svir (`sniper') is the version used with the non-stabilised sights on the T-72B and T-72S tanks. The main difference between the two is the type of fire-control system used to guide the missiles. The Refleks uses a 9S517 automatic control unit with a laser emitter located within the gunner's primary sight, while the Svir is used with the separate 1K13 sight. The Refleks round has a range of 5,000 m, 1,000 m more than that of the Svir."

However, the deployment dates are interesting:

"It is understood that the Refleks entered service in 1984 and that the Svir entered service in 1994."

This information was found on Jane's Ammunition Handbook, which is well regarded, but does not mean it is total fact.

We may never know...

[Sewter]

Here is more on the tank guns deployed by the Russians. It will cover the different weapons:

"2A45 and 2A45M tank guns fitted to T-64 and early T-72 Main Battle Tanks (MBTs); 2A46 (D-81) and 2A46M (D-81M) tank guns fitted to T-64A and T-72 MBTs; 2A46M1 tank gun fitted to T-80U, T-80UD and T-90E MBTs; 2A75 gun on 2S25 self-propelled anti-tank gun; 2A45M Sprut-B towed anti-tank gun."

Here is the Kobra ATGM:

"The 9K112 Kobra was the first gun-launched guided missile system in the world. It was originally developed for the T-64B tank and was also known by the NATO codename AT-8 'Songster'. It was introduced into Soviet Army service during the mid-1970s. It is still restricted from export, although some marketing information appeared in 1998. The 9K112 Kobra system was later carried by the T-80 tank (each T-64B or T-80 carried four 9K112 missiles). By the mid-1980s, the 9K112 Kobra began to be supplemented by the 9M119 system (see separate entry). Unlike later 125 mm and other gun-launched guided missile systems, the 9K112 Kobra features rocket assistance and radio guidance.

There is some doubt as to whether the 9K112 is compatible with the autoloader of the T-72."

This info came from the same source as my above post. This is not intended on changing the game in anyway, but for those who want to use it towards changing their mobs, it may be useful. Use it wisely.

[JaM]

Ok, there are many total oposite info about rsian tanks. My info was from book "Tanks - Modern military vehicles" (Milos Soukup,Military academy Brno 1995) It is quite confusing, If T-72B1 is the "Super Dolly Parton" and T-72A is "Dolly Parton" what is the T-72B? With T-64B tanks, number "1" mean, that it dont have guiging system for missiles. Next confusing thing is, that russian never used for T-72B tank designation "V" for tanks with ERA. (every T-72B was equiped with it, some early models were without it, but later equiped).

[Amadeus]

Speaking of Soviet/Russian tanks, please notice that the T-80U was designed from start to be equipped with advanced ERA (Kontakt-5) there's no "early" T-80U with older ERA, as depicted in the game. And, while we're at it, consider also that T-72M and T-72M1 etc. were names used only for export tanks. As JaM said the corresponding Soviet variant was the T-72A. And it's not only a mere question of naming conventions, after the mid 80's, ERA was added to T-72A tanks creating thus the T-72AV variant that is missing in the game OOB.

Regards,

A.

[DRG]

Amadeus said:after the mid 80's, ERA was added to T-72A tanks creating thus the T-72AV variant that is missing in the game OOB.

Regards,

A.

If you don't see unit 614 in the Russian OOB as a T-72AV then you don't have ver2.5 installed which makes debating what is or isn't in the game OOB's a bit difficult

Don

[JaM]

Info on aeronautics page is extremly old,for example info about 280mm front turret thickness came from old Janes magazine, and is extremly unaccurate.LOS thickness of T-72 tank is 320mm at the gun area and around 430mm at the corners. 80mm front hull info is wrong, as older models had combo 80+105+20 (steel,alumina,steel),newer models (T-72A) had 60+105+50 composition.T-72B has better composition as it has additional armor plate (30mm SHS, or HHS) Whole nomenclature problem with T-72 tanks is Janes fault as they (and West) had limited info about this tank, they even spoke about a T-74 tank (never existed),Janes T-72A,B,G,M export tank nomenclature is wrong. T-72A and T-72B were just plain T-72 tanks with steel turrets (without inserts in turret cavities)they had nothing to do with russian T-72A and T-72B FST-1.
T-72G was simplified version (cheaper) of T-72M export tank

T-72M wasnt a Warshaw pact version of T-72A.For exampe Czechoslovakia got first T-72 in 1977-78.They were just simple first russian model T-72 tanks.T-72M was modernisation of these tanks. They added LRF,better firecontrol system and improved stabilisation (in comparation with base T-72 model from 1973) T-72M1 was a new build tank. Its armor protection was same (at least)as in russian T-72A,front hull got 16mm SHS plate + another FC and stabilisation upgrade.First T-72M1 tanks were avaiable in 1985-86, year when russian had new T-72B and T-80U tanks, so they allowed Warshaw pact countries to build their version of T-72A tank (they did same thing with T-72 base model in 1978)
There were no T-72BV or T-72B1V tank ever. T-72B1 and T-72B tanks had ERA from begining (some tanks were stripped), same thing happend with T-80U, there were no T-80UV version...
Whole info at this page is old,(1996-97), i have old armor page downloaded in my computer.

I apologise if my post is too aggresive, but my english is not my strongpoint...

[Marek_Tucan]

What name on the TankNet? Logged in recently, but moslty lurking from time to time, so far one post (as Tuccy)...

So... Do I got it right? Both T-72B1 and T-72B are referred to as "Super Dolly Parton", ie both have thickened front turret armour (I mean that much it can be seen), while "Dolly Parton" models are T-72A and T-72M, correct? And B1 is w/o ATGM. OK.

Now one more thing... What the hell is T-72S? Some sources state "export B", some "export A with BM FC"... What is correct?

[JaM]

My name on Tanknet is jaro,I added link for this disscusion.It is quite short,Hardkonnen is quite tenacious, but about russian tanks knows everything and he has very interesting photos,most of them were never published in the West.
Dolly Parton is a T-72A. T-72S is an export model of T-72B. Some sources tells that it is a T-72A upgraded to T-72B status (ERA,FC,ATGM system,etc...),other that it is a regular T-72B retyped as S (similar way as T-90S)

[JaM]

Maybe they have one version of T-72S (aka T-72B) for good ally and other for not as good ... (rebuilded T-72A)