What it will take for me to purchase Dom III

[Arralen]

Kristoffer O said:
> @Zen
> Sorry, but I don't get the "close-minded" part. Could you please elaborate ?

He happens to know that the AI in dom3 builds castles and that you get more gold in dom3. Now you know as well and may want buy dom3 when it comes out

Thanks for the info,
but what the AI in Dom3 does or does not is besides the point.

I have paid .. what, $40 .. for a game I would normally play >80% in SP, but it's more or less useless for that. So I'm forced to play MP, what I can only sparingly do because of time constraints (and time zone).
Atm, if I want a SP game that makes some sense, I have to edit the map to pre-place castles and make pretenders for every nation to hand over to the AI. What gets tedious work and takes a good part of the fun away from the game.
I even started writing an app to do exactly that for me - I'm not sure if it will get finished before Dom3 comes out, as I'm learning a new programming language especially for this.

So all I want is the game I already paid for in a state that it is not 'completely' (no software ever is, I guess), but at least 'sufficiently' finished. But it doesn't look like this will ever happen.

And can anyone assure that the same wouldn't happen with Dom3? That this or that will not work and I will be told to buy Dom4? I had that happen with too much games from the big labels already, and I really hoped this wouldn't happen again. That's what it takes to make me purchase Dom 3 !

[Zen]

Arralen said:
I have paid .. what, $40 .. for a game I would normally play >80% in SP, but it's more or less useless for that. So I'm forced to play MP, what I can only sparingly do because of time constraints (and time zone).
Atm, if I want a SP game that makes some sense, I have to edit the map to pre-place castles and make pretenders for every nation to hand over to the AI. What gets tedious work and takes a good part of the fun away from the game.
I even started writing an app to do exactly that for me - I'm not sure if it will get finished before Dom3 comes out, as I'm learning a new programming language especially for this.

So all I want is the game I already paid for in a state that it is not 'completely' (no software ever is, I guess), but at least 'sufficiently' finished. But it doesn't look like this will ever happen.

Maybe what you categorize 'sufficiently' and what others categorize 'sufficiently' are two different things. It's impossible to argue that you want 'What you paid for'. There was a demo that was availiable which gave you a pretty decent representation of the game. For whatever reasoning you decided that it was worth the purchase alot of people didn't and not for the reasons you stated. You control what you buy. End point, there is no fault of the developer on what you considered was worth your money. For my $40.00 Dom2 has been well worth it though you may disagree and you are perfectly entitled too.

You can't blame IW for fixing things in a new version of the game that allows them the ability to add to all aspects of the game (and the desires of other people that play the game, other than yourself) the easiest way possible (by massively rewriting coding, placing modding where it wasn't originally planned, etc) with an entire new version and thus a new game.

And can anyone assure that the same wouldn't happen with Dom3? That this or that will not work and I will be told to buy Dom4? I had that happen with too much games from the big labels already, and I really hoped this wouldn't happen again. That's what it takes to make me purchase Dom 3 !

There will be a demo and release notes for Dom3 just like Dom2 I expect. You don't even have to try the demo if you don't want to, you can not play Dom3 for whatever reason you like. However if the Demo gives you enough reason to buy it, then it will. There are no assurances for your personal preference, unfortunately or the future possibilities.

[Zen]

And I would like to add finally the great truism of the Internet.

Even if you give people what they want, they still feel the need to complain. Kristoffer just told you that 2 of your list of X were already fixed. While that may not mean they are doing everything you want, it certainly does mean that you are being heard and implementing changes they feel are appropriate and within their ability/resources to change.

[Cainehill]

Zen said:
And I would like to add finally the great truism of the Internet.

Even if you give people what they want, they still feel the need to complain. Kristoffer just told you that 2 of your list of X were already fixed. While that may not mean they are doing everything you want, it certainly does mean that you are being heard and implementing changes they feel are appropriate and within their ability/resources to change.

Of course, outside the software world, when you're sold a car that turns out that only the wheels on the right spin, people don't get surprised and upset when you're not willing to simply buy next years model because "it'll be fixed in the next (model/version/release)".

Don't get me wrong - I like Dom2, and will almost certainly get Dom3. But if I hadn't been able to play lots of MP games, I probably would've shelved the game among all the others that I've bought and been dissatisfied with over the years. The SP game has immense flaws, which would be almost impossible to ascertain simply from playing the demo. (Players would be extremely unlikely to figure out that the AI never builds castles and has no clue about starvation. It'd also take someone willing to play the demo an awful lots for them to figure out the diplomatic blundering and blatant cheating going on.)

And, outside the software world, yes, people probably would have reasonable expectations that their car would work with or without passengers or whatnot. Only with games and other software (and possibly real estate development) can the seller consistently get away with a WYGIWYG (What You Got Is What You Got) attitude. Intel had to replace people's faulty Pentiums, even though the flaw was a lot less noticeable. Car manufacturers do recalls all the time - not just for exploding gas tanks, but for things arguably more trivial than the flaws in Dominions2. People don't have to suck it up and buy the next model to get the flaws fixed.

J and K have done a lot in supporting the game - I'm not saying they're guilty of that. But I can see how people are frustrated and disappointed in never getting a viable single player game out of their purchase.

[Zen]

Does not what just happened mean anything?

This isn't a car, this is an extended movie. You get your entertainment value out of it as well as everything else involved. You may like it for different qualities that other people do or do not enjoy. However, there are themes in the good movies just like there are themes in the 'good' games of a genre.

At the end of a particular movie you may like the movie but it indubidably it has flaws. In Dom2 (which is not what we're talking about in this thread, we're talking about Dom3) those flaws might have been bad ending and some shaky performances by actors.

Does that mean the sequel could be a stinker? Sure. Does it mean a sequel can be a hit? Yeah. But you can't determine that yet because there is no real information except what we've seen. If IW is addressing concerns in the production of the next Dominions, why are you bashing them for Dom2? Even to the point of idiocy to say "and they have no intention of changing this issue" which OBVIOUSLY is not the case by admission.

Maybe since I've played Dom2 from when it was released and know and agree with a big number of flaws. I have a different perception. Any improvements are good and if they can make a great game including as many really good ideas from the wishlist as well as correcting major flaws in Dom2 that they are aware of (micromanagement, UI, tutorial, balance, SP, etc) then why spit in the face of progress?

I'm glad this thread was started with by a newcomer who just threw his opinion out there and gave IW some perspective of people who are fresh to Dom2. Something they didn't have since it was released a few years ago and is a niche title.

Edit:

I may have not clearly expressed my point Cainehill. My point is you can't unwatch a movie. You spent the time and the money (or the bandwith) that you can never get back because you are enjoying a recreation.

That is why this is more akin to games. While they have the benefit of being modified while they are being watched (and is expected in this day and age of seeming incompleteness, bugs, hardware crap, etc) this particular movie is made like the any lowbudget B movie. You might have a Bruce Campbell who is the God of B-Movie actors but you can't spend much money on the set or special effects.

Also any movie that can keep my interest for more than 2 years I count it a pretty good movie, maybe not for everyone out there. I count the same for games. If a game can keep me for more than two years enjoying playing it (however limited) then I think it's a pretty good game by the standard of early 2000's.

[Graeme Dice]

Cainehill said:
J and K have done a lot in supporting the game - I'm not saying they're guilty of that. But I can see how people are frustrated and disappointed in never getting a viable single player game out of their purchase.

I fail to see how people didn't get a viable single player game. The game functions properly, and the AI will beat a new player most of the time. What I've seen so far is complaints that the AI is inferior to a human player and can't give a human a challenge without cheating. That's no surprise since there is no single stretegy game more complicated than Chess where that statement isn't true. I can't think of any complex strategy game where the AI isn't a pushover without massive cheating once the player has learned the game rules.

As an aside, even if you only played the single player game for 20 hours you got more than your money's worth out of the game considering that any non-strategy game has about that much actual gameplay.

[Cainehill]

Graeme Dice said:

As an aside, even if you only played the single player game for 20 hours you got more than your money's worth out of the game considering that any non-strategy game has about that much actual gameplay.

When I'm more wide awake I may address the first part of what you wrote, but for now : "Any non-strategy game has about ... 20 hours of gameplay"??? I'd love to be able to say, "Ad hominem!" or whatever ( ) but I'll have to settle for saying, patently untrue. Diablo and its clones certainly aren't strategy games, agreed? Not true RPGs, but hack-and-slash beer-and-bloodshed games aren't strategy titles.

Yet lots of people have gotten hundreds or thousands of hours of gaming experience out of them. Similarly, a game genre I don't play but whose players seem to manage to get hundreds or thousands of hours out of : First Person Shooters - okay, admittedly that's because of the MP thrills, but still - that's more than 20 hours.

Any numbers of RPGs have given players hundreds of hours of gameplay, as they restart with a different party, a different alignment choice, a 3 member party vice 6, etc. Hades - how many hours have people gotten out of driving games, golf games, or (gag) Dance Dance Revolution? More than 20.

You and Zen are comparing the game to movies - sorry, but that's comparing .... *shrug* Whiskey to milk. We drink both - but we don't expect milk to last as long as whiskey, and we don't expect as much fun out of it.

When we go to a movie, we expect at most around 2 hours entertainment. There's totally different expectations between the two entertainment choices / commodities, so please, just stop comparing the two. I doubt if many people would argue that (most) games are a better value, weighed in terms of money divided by time. I also doubt if many reasonable, intelligent people would say that a game was a life-changing experience, while people do sometimes feel that way about movies.

Even more pointedly : saying, "You got more gameplay for your dollar than you would've for a non-strategy title" is crap. Know anyone in recent years who ever bought a strategy game expecting 20 hours of play? How about a chess game that, because the AI is bad, occasionally removes one of your pieces from the board? That's what the Seeking Arrow from 30 provinces away on turn 12 is. "But they both make the game more challenging in the absence of better AI!" Gee - thanks!

And yes, I can think of a number of strategy games that had a much more solid, satisfying SP gameplay, without blatant cheating (sometimes without cheating, period) than Dominions 2. The original Warlords - just one map, 100s of hours of play. Sword of Aragon - not exactly scripted, but early battles were easy; to win the later battles you really had to improve your game, to the point of replaying once you'd improved, in order to build up your armies / cities better through the course of the game. Again - 100s of hours of play. Stars! ( The one by Stardock.) Master of Orion. Master of Magic. Anacreon, even.

(Note : Moo / MoM gave huge bonuses to the computer players. That isn't "blatant cheating", just as the AI getting huge bonuses in pretender creation isn't in Dominions.)

And again - I'm not unhappy with Dominions. I'm not unhappy with J & K. Quite the opposite. What I'm unhappy with is the knee-jerk response of calling someone's reply "close minded" just because they're not nearly as happy with Dominions as you are (or for that matter, as I am). People can have legitimate complaints, regardless of how wonderful a _MP_ game Dominions is. After all - it's designed and meant to be a MP (and PBEM at that) game.

But it wasn't really marketed that way. Not that it was particularly marketed in the modern sense but - Shrapnel never put a blurb out, "By PBEM gamers, for PBEM gamers - if you're not womanly enough for MP, you're not woman enough for this game", nor anything like it.

[quantum_mechani]

Cainehill said:
I also doubt if many reasonable, intelligent people would say that a game was a life-changing experience, while people do sometimes feel that way about movies.

Dominions has been a life changing experience. Before, I was was depressed. I wondered what was the meaning of it all. I stepped on plants.

But I realized the error of my ways, I invited the Carrion Dragon into my life. Suddenly, it made sense. I knew I was doing the right thing.

[Zen]

Cainehill said:
And again - I'm not unhappy with Dominions. I'm not unhappy with J & K. Quite the opposite. What I'm unhappy with is the knee-jerk response of calling someone's reply "close minded" just because they're not nearly as happy with Dominions as you are (or for that matter, as I am). People can have legitimate complaints, regardless of how wonderful a _MP_ game Dominions is. After all - it's designed and meant to be a MP (and PBEM at that) game.

Let me bold it for you since apparently it's knee jerk:

Arralen said:


What gets me back to the topic:
I don't like that. As I don't like the fact that the AI still cannot build castles and commanders from sites, chooses heavy death scale to often and has no clue about supplies - therefore crippling itself very effectivly. What I don't like even more is the fact, that the devs know about this very well but are not willing to fix it ...

If you have already decided what the Dev's are going to do about something why are you waiting around for them to make the game? You should be Nostradamus and get a cult together with such prognostication abilities.

Or maybe that is being open minded.

And let me say for the record I agree with most of Arralen's points, reasoning, cause for concern, and desire for change. What I don't agree with is a blatent lie about something that someone has no clue about as far as IW's intentions. They have even changed their minds about things throughout the course of Dom2 so even if some grand statement that gave a certain impression it might only applicable to Dom2 and not Dom3 in terms of being able to change it.

I'm sure we would all like a patch right now for alot of things for Dom2 (morale, etc) but if the choice is between continued support of Dom2 or the development of Dom3, at this point in Dom2's life I would probably lean towards Dom3.

Especially if alot of the things that were to be patched would be much easier to do under a Dom3 framework thus allowing IW to further push the game in whatever direction they are going with it.

[Zen]

Cainehill said:
When we go to a movie, we expect at most around 2 hours entertainment. There's totally different expectations between the two entertainment choices / commodities, so please, just stop comparing the two. I doubt if many people would argue that (most) games are a better value, weighed in terms of money divided by time. I also doubt if many reasonable, intelligent people would say that a game was a life-changing experience, while people do sometimes feel that way about movies.

No, when you buy a game you are basically saying it is going to entertain you for X hours before you consider it a reasonable purchase. Some people might put that number at 1000 hours, others might put it at 200. It depends on the person and type of gamer they are.

Games are entertainment, luxury, non-neccessary consumables.