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Old November 26th, 2005, 07:29 PM

RedRover RedRover is offline
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Default Re: MOD: \"Pagan Slav\" nation

Slav Historical Notes

I finally found my copy of Armies of the Dark Ages 600-1066 by Ian Heath. Wargame Research Group. 1980. I recommend the book if you can find it. Here is a summary of the material on 10-11th Century Slavs.

Slav Regional Troops

North Slav (Rus/Varangian)

West Slav (Pole, Pomeranian, Polabian, Wend, Bohemian, Moravian)

South Slav (Serb, Croat, Mazovian, Silesian, Pechneg)

East Slav (Avar, Magyar, Khazar, Bulgar, Pechneg, Alan/Ossetian)

These are homeland areas—everybody fought everybody else and/or served as everybody else’s mercenaries throughout the period. For example, most West Slav cavalry was of East Slav origin and the Varangians got as far south as Byzantium. In general, the Northern Slavs look a lot like Vanheim, but shade into Tribal Warriors and then into Tribal Horsemen as you move south and east.

Weapons/Tactics

Rus: Spear/sword/axe/javelin infantry. Varangian heavy infantry held the center of the line when present. Bowmen are always present, mostly asiatic auxiliaries. Common formation is a shield-wall square, with bowmen in the middle. Cavalry, other than small numbers of asiatic auxiliaries, is almost non-existent, though small numbers of horse-mobile Varangian infantry might be available. These invariably fought on foot.

West Slav: Almost all infantry. Ambushes in forest and swamps (terrain survival), surprise attacks, raiding, area defense based on small local fort garrisons (Watchtower-type?) converging on intruders. Poles have small numbers of Norman-style heavy cavalry augmented by Pechneg/Magyar horse archers. More of these heavy cavalry as the period advances. Poland is the cultural center.

South Slav: Like West Slav (but forest/mountain survival) and a greater proportion of Asiatic cavalry. Hungary is the cultural center.

East Slav: Mostly horse tribes, with mountain-based tribal infantry. Ambushes, horse archer skirmishing, and feigned flight are staple tactics (tough to replicate in Dom2 play). Infantry are subject peoples, generally of the poorest military quality. Pechnegs use laagered wagons as a tactical base (new unit type?). Bulgars tended to use bows less than other groups (spear-and-javelin or light lance).

Dominions Adaptations
The book also has line drawings of the troop types. Here are some of the more interesting examples (the numbers are illustration numbers), with Dom2 equipment:

Rus Chief (#73): Spear, Broadsword; Scale Mail Hauberk, Round Shield, Helmet.

Rus Warrior (#74): Spear, Throwing Axe; Scale Mail Cuirass, Tower Shield, Helmet.

Slav Warrior (#75): Spear, Javelin; Furs, Round Shield.

Slav Archer (#76): Short Bow; No Armor.

Slav Chieftain (#77): Spear, Broadsword, Javelin; Mounted, Scale Mail Hauberk, Round Shield, Helmet.

(a variant that might be considered
Slav Chieftain: Composite Bow, Sabre*; Scale Mail Hauberk, Helmet.

Slav Warrior, Hungarian, 11C (#79): Spear; Almond Shield*, Helmet.

Pole Cavalry, 11C (#80): (Light?) Lance, Broadsword; Mounted, Chain Mail Hauberk, Round Shield, Helmet.

Asiatic Horse Archer (#81): Composite Bow, Sabre*; None.

Variant, Magyar: Composite Bow or Javelin, Hand Axe, Lasso*; Furs, Buckler.

New Weapon Discussion

Sabre: This is a light, slightly curved, single edged sword used by Eastern European and Asian Steppes cavalry. Frankly, the Hand Axe, which also saw widespread use, could be substituted for a sabre in almost every case. However, I still think the Sabre should be added to the game.

There are several different ways to configure this weapon.

1. Lighter and less effective than the Broad Sword, but cheaper.
Say: #nratt 1, #dmg 5, #att 0, #def 0, #len 2, res 2.

Broadsword: #nratt 1, #dmg 6, #att 0, #def 1, #len 2, res 3.

2. Not only cheaper than the Broad Sword, but handier to use defensively (my pick for first testing).
Say: #nratt 1, #dmg 5, #att 0, #def 2, #len 2, res 2.

3. Cheaper than the Broad Sword, but handy in both attack and defense (this is a more fantasy treatment, test carefully):
Say: #nratt 2, #dmg 5, #att 0, #def 1, #len 2, res 2.

4. Overpowered as a national special (Name might be: [Nationname] Sabre; in this case the weapon should not be left generic, IMO.):
Say: #nratt 2, #dmg 6, #att 0, #def 2, #len 2, res 2.

Almond Shield: This is a teardrop-shaped shield that extends roughly to the knee. It was popular in Eastern Europe. It is smaller than the Norman kite shield, which extended to the ankle. Neither of these seem to match the Dom2 “Kite Shield” which appears in all illustrations as the Late Medieval knight’s “heater” shield. Since the latter is of later period and most likely of better construction, I would be reluctant to give the Almond Shield the current Dom2 Kite Shield stats. On the other hand, it should be marginally better than the Round Shield, though of comparable cost. Cavalry can use it; IMO, Norman-style Frankish Cavalry should use it.

Say: #def 3; #prot 3; #enc 1, res 2.

Round Shield: #def 2; #prot 3; #enc 1, res 2.
Tower Shield: #def 4; #prot 3; #enc 2, res 3.
Kite Shield: #def 3; #prot 4; #enc 2, res 4.

Note on Dom2 Tower Shields: These seem to me to be infantry shields about three feet wide and four feet or more tall, and made of wood reinforced with metal. This definition would include certain Greek hoplite shields, the Roman Scutum, the Frankish/Norman kite shield, a Medieval crossbowman’s pavise, and maybe the late Roman oval shield, though this last might be considered somewhat less protective and possibly equal to the proposed Almond Shield in effect.

Lasso: Not sure how this would be incorporated. The source says Magyars used lassos against enemy cavalry; no mention is made of infantry. My approach would be to make this a non-damaging Vine-style entangling attack, with a special “rope coil” explosion sprite. It would mess up the target’s defense and maybe increase encumbrance until a Strength save was made. I wonder if it could be a designated primary weapon when facing an opponent of a certain size (say sz 3 and 4).

Say: #nratt 1, #dmg vine entangle, #att -1, #def -1, #len 6, res 0.

Anyhow, just some thoughts for you to mull over.
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Old November 27th, 2005, 05:46 AM
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Default Re: MOD: \"Pagan Slav\" nation

RedRover:

Thanks a lot for your contributions. Unfortunatelly I'm sick, my head feels like it's going to explode and I can't bring myself to work on the mod. I'll get back to it as soon as I can.
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Old November 27th, 2005, 03:25 PM

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Default Re: MOD: \"Pagan Slav\" nation

unlucky dude, hope you get better and good luck with this mod
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Old November 27th, 2005, 06:57 PM
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Default Re: MOD: \"Pagan Slav\" nation

Good luck with the mod. Sounds interesting!
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Old December 15th, 2005, 05:41 PM
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Default Re: MOD: \"Pagan Slav\" nation

bump

I've been secretely editing my posts for a while. So what do you think ? Is there potential for an interesting new nation ?

In my opinion, I'll have to rely on new national summons a lot, because there are lots of spirits and demons in slavic myths.

I'm going to progressively collect more stuff here. As I write it all down, design ideas race through my head.

I'd like one of minor spellcasters to have 1S, but wouldn't it make it too powerful Astral/Communion nation ? I think there's enough of them already, so I'll probably just keep 2S on Vyedmas (biggest caster).

Also keep in mind the units I graciously stole from RedRover's post are just a base I'll be working on.
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Old December 16th, 2005, 11:56 AM

shovah shovah is offline
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Default Re: MOD: \"Pagan Slav\" nation

theres more than potention mate and maybe if you tell us all the planned magic lvls (so far) we could give advice on the s1 thing
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Old December 16th, 2005, 04:11 PM
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Default Re: MOD: \"Pagan Slav\" nation

Planned stuff: that's what 2nd post is for. Check out "National Commanders" label in 2nd post.

I'd be happy to also include some kind of minor caster/researcher with 1S 1N 1F, but it could make Slavs too much of an astral nation. Too cost-effective communion isn't what I want for this nation. As it is, Vyedmas are the only astral mage (2) and they should be rather expensive considering their paths.
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