A better system for combat

[Lerchey]

While I will happily agree that the combat system could use some modification, I have never seen a "one of mine goes, then one of yours goes" system that doesn't a) bog down and b) end up with its' own problems - like the barrage of units at the end of the turn when one side outnumbers the other significantly.

An initiative system based on indivdiual ships (when not in fleets) and fleets would be interesting. A random seed would be set for each individual ship, and one for each fleet. Each ship which is not in a fleet could be a "manuever element" and each fleet would be one.

Each ship or fleet would add it's experience rating to the seed, and maybe if there were race traits for initiative, those could be added/subtracted as well. Then, in order, each element performs an action set.

This would combine the "balance" of "one of yours/one of mine", but would tip that balance in favor of the units with better initiative. So it may be that two or three of yours go, then one or two of mine, based on the initiative scores each turn. I would keep fleet initiative as well, but enforce that only the fleet leader can be selected for movement, and the other members hold formation. That gives the fleet a huge firepower advantage when it activates, but removes the temptation/allowance for each ship in the fleet to move individually and separately. One of the cheats (IMHO) that used in tactical against the AI was to move my fleet members where I wanted them, typically burning all of their movement, THEN move the fleet leader so that they don't stay in a formation that I don't like (this was way back when there were fewer formations available).

This gives an incentive to operate in fleets, but allows flexibility if you don't. And gives individual ships more tactical freedom.

Just another opinion, and worth what you paid for it.

General John

[Kadste]

Not sure why initiative would be too complicated to implement. Stars another one of those space 4E games that has been out for a long time has initiative built in.

Different components can have an initiative modifier that is cumulative per ship.
Example:
Ion Engine I: 1 point
Jacketed Photon Engine I: 3 points
Bridge I: 1 point
Auxillary BridgeI: 1 point
Master computer I: 1 point
Depleted Uranium Cannon: 3 points (total regardless of the number)
Anti-matter torpedo: 1 point total regardless of the number)

Therefore faster ships would have higher initiative. Ships with shorter range weapons that do not require longer targeting times like the DUC vs Torpedo will have higher initiative.

Ship size initiative can use the number of engines, or a separate modifier.

Ship 1
6 ion I 6 points
Bridge I 1 point
3 DUC I 3 points
total 10 points

Ship 2:
6 ion I 6 points
Bridge I 1 point
2 anti-matter torpedos 1 point
total 8 points

Therefore ship 1 goes first.

I know this is a simple example, but could work.

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In difficult ground, press-on;
In encircled ground, devise stratagems;
In death ground, fight.
Sun Tzu (circa 400 B.C.)

[Tampa_Gamer]

I agree - some good ideas here. There have been a number of similar threads over the past 11 months. I believe most of the gamers (PBEM and single player) would like some sort of initiative-based system ala MOO2 or otherwise. All I can say is MM listens to the masses so everyone who wants it must e-mail him the request. Even if you e-mailed him 6 months ago about it, do it again - now.

[This message has been edited by Tampa_Gamer (edited 11 October 2001).]

[Taqwus]

It might have been easier in Stars! if the latter did not allow custom tech trees.

Here, retrofitting initiative at the level of individual components would be, er, tricky. And what if components get damaged during combat, or if a ship has different weapons, some of which are considered fast and others slow?

Hmmm. More complication could be tolerated if the interface becomes simpler, such as the AI picking all targets and when to fire -- IOW, user intervention (and thus, constant interruption) wouldn't be as much of an issue. Plot courses, give some hints perhaps (targetting priorities, say), and then the system executes for some number of rounds.

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-- The thing that goes bump in the night

[AJC]

I would like to see an intiative system too, I just wonder how it would respond to the many different custom tech trees..and how much work it would take to do it right..But better than nothing would be alternating firing and moves...which is probably relatively simple to implement.

[This message has been edited by AJC (edited 12 October 2001).]

[dogscoff]

I don't see how tech trees complicate matters. I mean look at the combat attack / defence modifiers: They are calculated battle by battle according to a combination of hull ability, racial bonuses, ship experience, fleet experience and researchable components - exactly what we are proposing for initiative - and that works fine.

Sure, it would probably require a major re-write to many parts of the game, but I should think much of it could be copy/ pasted from the code which controls the other combat modifiers.

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/SE4 Code
Go to my meagre SEIV pages to generate your own code.

[capnq]

Just to complicate the issue further:

Would the very rare case when there's more than two empires involved in a battle affect how an initiative syatem worked?

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Cap'n Q
My first mod! Hypermaze quadrant
The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the
human mind to correlate all of its contents. We live on a placid
island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was
not meant that we should go far. -- HP Lovecraft, "The Call of Cthulhu"