Orion can't beat this...

[NTJedi]

This is one of the main reasons Dominions_3 needs to have a method which allows players to disable/enable spells and items. Thus if something is broken or unbalanced in the game players can remove this before they start.

[Endoperez]

Aren't mods enough?

House rules also work, as even the event-given items can be thrown away.

[NTJedi]

Endoperez said:
Aren't mods enough?

Lots of people don't install mods for several reasons.
First they are not accepted by everyone.
Second some mods conflict with other mods.
Third lots of people will only install what they get from the developer and since they are not officially from the developer many gamers ignore released mods.
Fourth mods may give you one feature you like but add three you don't like... and not everyone is computer savy enough to make their own mods.
Fifth adding the enable/disable feature within the game will save time for modders in the long run because they won't have to spend time making adjustments for something which can be quickly done before each game.

So overall... mods are not enough.

[Endoperez]

NTJedi said:
Lots of people don't install mods for several reasons.
First they are not accepted by everyone.
Second some mods conflict with other mods.
Third lots of people will only install what they get from the developer and since they are not officially from the developer many gamers ignore released mods.

This is true. However, instead of adding a totally new system for a billion little things like this, I think it'd be better to make clients download and use the mods from the host - this would allow for many more options.
If one wants to play a game, you're practically forced to obey the rules the host sets for it. If you don't like them, you can choose not to play - but if the program downloads the mods for you, there is no reason not to!
Mods can conflict with other mods, that's true. However, that's not a problem for those who don't use mods (other than the few home rules like banning a certain item) at all...
and while mods wouldn't be straight from the developer, the mod sharing system would be, and as long as the transferred files are just txt files and tga files, it should be virus-free and safe.

If one is already using a mod, and wants to further change some part of it, wouldn't it be simpler to edit the mod? The mod system is quite simple, after all, and well documented. And if you already have an example mod, it should be even easier.
Personally, I wouldn't play a game where the host didn't bother to check if the mods work together beforehand, ask someone who might know things, or something to that effect. Help is widely available, after all.

Fourth mods may give you one feature you like but add three you don't like... and not everyone is computer savy enough to make their own mods.

I'd say that being able to write into a text file should be required from anyone that uses a computer.

Adding a simple text file with two examples should be enough:

-- disabling magic items:
#selectitem "Bane Venom Charm"
#constlevel 12
--disabling spells:
#selectspell "Forge of the Ancients"
#school -1

Fifth adding the enable/disable feature within the game will save time for modders in the long run because they won't have to spend time making adjustments for something which can be quickly done before each game.

So overall... mods are not enough.

I would rather have a single mod-file with the settings I usually use, and enable it once, than re-ban a dozen items and spells before every new game I start. This saves time ESPECIALLY in the long run. And in MP games, I except the host to do some work - like using 15 minutes to browsing through the mod manual, writing the mod, and possibly searching this forum if he doesn't understand something. I don't think simple things like disallowing items and spells take more time than that.

And it seems that your point is not that mods aren't enough, but that they aren't easy enough to use, make and edit. The text file syntax is as easy as it comes, so I quess what you actually want is a graphical UI for editing mods.

[NTJedi]

Endoperez said:
This is true. However, instead of adding a totally new system for a billion little things like this,

Adding an interface which enables / disables spells is not a billion little things. Each spell and item are easily listed having an interface to turn them on and off is a benefit even for modders.

Endoperez said:
I think it'd be better to make clients download and use the mods from the host - this would allow for many more options.

This sounds like a good option... but it shouldn't take away having an easy to use feature for the disable / enable spells and items before the game starts.
No extra download for multiplayer... no adjusting files or searching for mods via singleplayer... an easy 5 clicks and its ready.

Endoperez said:
If one is already using a mod, and wants to further change some part of it, wouldn't it be simpler to edit the mod?

Perhaps you work in an environment where everyone is computer savy. Unfortunately many people exist which have no clue on moving or editing game files. And for a company to expect this from customers means they will lose money from those lacking the knowledge.

Endoperez said:
ask someone who might know things, or something to that effect. Help is widely available, after all.

A large percentage of gaming customers don't post on forums. To expect this from all customers is not realistic. To make the game more JUICY for those lacking computer knowledge the disable/enable would definitely work.

Endoperez said:
I'd say that being able to write into a text file should be required from anyone that uses a computer.

I agree as a friend... but if I was your business partner I would disagree. It's better business wisdom not to have expectations from your customers... give them the simple click-click.

Endoperez said:
I would rather have a single mod-file with the settings I usually use, and enable it once, than re-ban a dozen items and spells before every new game I start.

So developers add a feature in the interface which says "save settings"... works in other games. Problem solved.


My suggestion is to provide more game flexibility for those which know very little about computers. This will open the game to a wider market.

[Graeme Dice]

NTJedi said:
Adding an interface which enables / disables spells is not a billion little things. Each spell and item are easily listed having an interface to turn them on and off is a benefit even for modders.

An interface to disable any individual spell or item would consist of hundreds of lines, and be far more difficult to work with than a mod file that simply disables the specific spells you don't want to use.

Unfortunately many people exist which have no clue on moving or editing game files.

Anybody who isn't smart enough to figure out how to move or edit text files is somebody who isn't smart enough to figure out how to play Dominions. The interface for the game itself is more complicated that dealing with file manipulation.

[Saber Cherry]

Graeme Dice said:
Anybody who isn't smart enough to figure out how to move or edit text files is somebody who isn't smart enough to figure out how to play Dominions. The interface for the game itself is more complicated that dealing with file manipulation.

True, but irrelevant. Anyone who is not smart enough to learn Spanish probably can't learn French (which is a little harder due to imaginary letters, devocalized words, and silent phrases)... but that doesn't mean Spanish should be a prerequisite for French classes.

I'm not saying Dominions should or shouldn't support such things at runtime - Total Annihilation did, and I liked it, though I never used it - just that that argument was fallacious

[Cainehill]

Graeme Dice said:
An interface to disable any individual spell or item would consist of hundreds of lines, and be far more difficult to work with than a mod file that simply disables the specific spells you don't want to use.

Not to mention that those 1000 spells, items, units, etc, can all be modified via the mod system, and the interface for this would have to cope with a mod removing an item, changing a spell's level, etc. Not a simple GUI project at all.

[Arralen]

NTJedi said:
Adding an interface which enables / disables spells is not a billion little things. Each spell and item are easily listed having an interface to turn them on and off is a benefit even for modders.

ROFLMAO !!!

The item manual is 71 pages, the spell book is 88 pages long.

There are 578 different spells.
There are 360 weapons, 115 armors and shields and I-don't-know-how-many hundreds of misc. items.
Furthermore, there are 87 Pretender units, 613 national units, 103 indy units, 266 summons and 57 other units.

And you think you could "easily list" them in game with a checkbox in front of each of them to (de)activate it?
Sorry, but that's ridiculous.

And if you add filters and grouping, things get too complicated for those who even cannot edit an ASCII file with a plain text editor.

On the other hand, I think anyone not able or willing to do that wouldn't have much fun actually playing the game. Because it's pretty complicated as well.

By the way, even the devs have issued a mod (Oceania) instead of adding that nation into the .exe . Obviously, for them using mods is quite normal. Why should they have added modding commands and a mod selector screen in the first place, if not using them is part of the 'normal' experience of playing Dom?

I agree that mods should be downloaded automatically from the server. That wouldn't happen with Dom2, though: You do the pretender first - and you need the mods enabled at that point already. To change that would require major re-design of the internal workings of the application.
But we can always hope for Dom3 .. .

[Morkilus]

I agree that mods should be downloaded automatically from the server. That wouldn't happen with Dom2, though: You do the pretender first - and you need the mods enabled at that point already.

I heard that you don't even need the mod to make your pretender if the mod doesn't affect your design points. So if you were hosting and wanted to ban a spell or item, you could whip up that mod for yourself just like how Endoperez posted and everyone would be good to go.