Tactical CS?

[Mustang]

As long as the unit you are attacking has a very low rally rating (or even a rally rating of 0), this CS idea works because the target never recovers from the supression. This is realistic. Tear gas will wear off after several minutes. As each MBT turn is three minutes, it wouldn't be ridiculous if a unit recovered from the effects of the CS after 2 or so turns.

[thatguy96]

Well CS is relatively persistant, which is why it was developed over CN which is not. CN was also often combined with DM to get a more immediate effect that would be harder to recover from in a short span. The napalm idea is good because it leaves a lasting effect on the hexes, and because most riot-control gas weapons work by either bursting or burning the filler, the resulting fire it not completely ridiuclous.

There seems to be a general concensus that this can be done. However, does it seem plausible that people would use units from a modified OOB that had weapons that didn't kill people with any consistancy? Or would this just be something for scenario designers? I guess that would be interesting, militants besiege a group of peace-keepers and you have to race to their aid because of the fact that they don't have a large number of lethal weapons, or some such situation.

Also, Listy, what weapons did you model beyond the the baton gun (that seems to be relatively obvious, I'm guessing that was supposed to be a 37mm launcher of some sort)? The weapons I were thinking of for this kind of thing would be hand grenades, 2.75" rockets, and CBUs. I guess one could also attempt to model the XM96 rocket for the XM191 and M202 66mm launchers.

Listy would it be possible to post the data or send me the OOBs so I could see where people were the last time this was looked at?

[Listy]

My UK OOB on here, somewhere has baton guns in some squads.

I think I had them in COIN patrols of 2x Snatch rover 2x 4 man squads with a baton gun. I also did a senario, based on a story a friend told me from Iraq, to show off the unit. However the AI movement routines, or lack there of, scuppered that senario.

It had a large angry mob surrounding a pair of broken down vehicles carrying contractors. A Pair of Snatch rovers where sent in to get them out, then they came under attack from armed badies.

The Idea was that you had to have iorn control over your weapons, only useing the baton gun on area fire to disperse the crowd alowing you to push in to pick up the contractors. if you left your weapons switched on, then you'd have a massaacre on your hands...

The CS was along long time ago, even maybe shown in an OOB posted on the old yahoo groups.

I did Get Sheilder and JP233 working just fine though!

[thatguy96]

Okay, so after some quick tests it appears I can get away without killing anyone. The napalm weapon class does supress well, but unless damage is done to the infantry, it is impossible to do anything more than pin them down.

Jacking up the WHS above 50 ensures that any infantry caught in the open by a direct hit will suffer between 1-5 casualties, while WHS of 50 ensures that units directly hit in the open will suffer between 1-2 casualties. Increasing WS only serves to increase casualties, so that was left at 1, which is the WS for Napalm tanks anyhow. Units suffering casulties of any number 1 or 5 went into immediate retreat or were routed, so it does do what its supposed to on that front.

Weapon that was attempting to be modeled was the BLU-52/B CS-2 tank, and was dropped from F-100D Super Sabres, in the US Army OOB.

[Listy]

Point: I'm not sure but I belive that bombs and air strikes have different suppression results.

[thatguy96]

It would appear so. However, it is a large subset of the CS weapons in use in the time period I'm working on.

Basically these are the things I was looking at when I started thinking about doing this:

66mm CS rockets for use with the XM191 and M202 launchers (XM96)
2.75" CS warheads for the Mk 40 rocket motor for use with standard launcehrs of the period (XM80 and XM99)
Hand grenades
and
Airdropped or sprayed weapons (including cluster bombs and things like the BLU-52/B)

[thatguy96]

As an odd update to this, I just tested out the effects of a class 14 weapon (cluster weapon) with 0 everything except class and range. The Vietcong units were hit indirectly (the engaging aircraft ARVN aircraft did not target) and all recieved 0 damage and suppression between 28-30 (for units both in cover and not. With the erradic spread of gas this might actually be the way to do this. The visual is not correct, but neither was the flame burst of napalm.