Oblivion

[DominionsFan]

Saber Cherry said:
I hope Oblivion doesn't conflict with Supreme Commander. I'm planning to buy SupCom at release, and Oblivion once the first expansion pack (==major bugfix update) and good mods come out... but I don't know the timing of either event. I'll probably have a nice, new computer by then.

From the mod side, I'd like to see a much better experience system, vastly less ugly people, spears, crossbows, short/long blade split, and from what I'm hearing, a redo of their leveled-list system, and a "PC Version" mod that de-consolizes the interface. Morrowind was much better after various mods came out, and this game repeats some of the same failings... so maybe the same people will fix them

I love the lvl system its just perfect, much better then gaining xp like in 99% of the RPGs, its old and boring.
What did you meant less ugly people? You gotta be kidding, the variety of the faces in Oblivion is endless. There are hot women, ugly orcs etc, and all of them are different regarding their "face".
You gonna miss the best game out there atm, if you wont buy it right now Saber. :-)
Oblivion >>>> Morrowind, and it is not just the gfx. Everything is just perfect.

[Saber Cherry]

DominionsFAN said:
I love the lvl system its just perfect, much better then gaining xp like in 99% of the RPGs, its old and boring.

The problem is:

(I mean it! This is a spoiler, do not read if you don't want to know how to abuse the MW/OB level system!)

[spoiler]
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blahblah blah blah blahblahblah blah lala blah lalala blahblah blah blah blahblahblah blah lala blah lalala blahblah blah blah blahblahblah blah lala blah lalala blahblah blah blah blahblahblah blah lala blah lalala The game encourages you to do stupid things like jump in place for 30 minutes if you want high acrobatics, or just if you want that nice 5x mult near the end of a level. The worst problem is that you cannot achieve a great character through intelligent choices - you have to make the most ***-backwards choices instead. Want to lay waste to enemies with a longsword, wearing heavy armor? DON'T choose blade and heavy armor as primary; choose blunt and light armor, but only use blade and heavy armor. Then your blade and heavy armor skills (and, when you *rarely* level, their associated stats) go through the roof, while enemies stay at a low level. If you actually pick the skills you use (or use the skills yuou pick), you level too quickly, and only get x1 or x2 level-ups (very bad!) and have much lower skills for the things you use at any given level. blahblah blah blah blahblahblah blah lala blah lalala blahblah blah blah blahblahblah blah lala blah lalala blahblah blah blah blahblahblah blah lala blah lalala blahblah blah blah blahblahblah blah lala blah lalala blahblah blah blah blahblahblah blah lala blah lalala
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[/spoiler]

What did you meant less ugly people? You gotta be kidding, the variety of the faces in Oblivion is endless. There are hot women, ugly orcs etc, and all of them are different regarding their "face".

...Have you seen the before and after "Beautiful Faces / Bodies / Clothes" mods for Morrowind? Oblivion looks a lot like "Before" The forests and dungeons and etc. are amazing, but the people (to me) look ugly. Not low-tech, or low-poly, or low-res... just ugly and unnatural, especially compared to what modders can do for free with the same tools.

You gonna miss the best game out there atm, if you wont buy it right now Saber. :-)
Oblivion >>>> Morrowind, and it is not just the gfx. Everything is just perfect.

I agree with both of those (well, except for the 'best' part). But I'd rather miss "X" now and enjoy "3X" later than enjoy "X" now and miss "3X" later. I think you are eating pie dough because you can't wait for the pie

[PrinzMegaherz]

Saber Cherry said:

The problem is:

(I mean it! This is a spoiler, do not read if you don't want to know how to abuse the MW/OB level system!)

[spoiler]
[/spoiler]

I still wonder how much effort you put into exploiting games. You were the first to point out that GC2's AI could be exploitet. Why don't you just enjoy the game instead of making such an effort to ruin the game for yourself?

[Saber Cherry]

I don't put effort into it, I try to enjoy them. But if a single-player game shoots itself in the foot, I'm not going to whittle crutches for it. How much fun is it to play Go or Magic or Basketball against yourself? Not much, because any challenge is purely artificial. Playing Morrowind was, in my experience, like playing D&D alone, with yourself as the GM. I spent half the time in-game, and the other half trying to find a mod or tweak a setting to compensate for the pathetic lack of choice.

In a good game, there are tradeoffs. If Soccer was structured such that only forwards could score, but nobody was allowed to shoot on an undefended goal... any team with non-forwards would automatically lose, it would be a stupid game, and it would have died centuries ago. It's around today because it does not have stupid exploits that require you to play in a deliberately dumb way in order to provide an illusion of challenge for yourself. Oblivion did not have to include the same exploits - they could have learned from the person who modded it to remove them.

Games are self-enclosed. If you have to impose external rules on yourself to make them interesting (like going to the Olympics wearing lead shoes, going on "Who Wants to Be A Millionare" drunk and high, or playing Civilization without ever building buildings) then there is something fundamentally wrong with the game itself. In good games, people don't have to resort to such saboutage - they can unleash themselves and compete to the best of their ability. If I can't compete to the best of my ability, I'm not playing a game - I'm tutoring someone (like when I play ping-pong or raquetball left-handed, or "weakly"). I have no need to tutor someone when I'm alone.

[DominionsFan]

Saber, you never played with Oblivion but you are posting like if you would. Try it before you are making up these ideas. I am pretty sure that you will be amazed by the whole game...well if you dont like the leveling system etc. I cannot help you in that, but saying that the faces are ugly...that is just nonsense. These are the most realistic faces what I ever seen in any game, they are fantastic.

As for singe player games....I was playing WoW for months, but I still enjoy some singeplayer games much more. Dont forget theres a huge amount of players who do enjoy playing offline, and this is true about Dominions also.

[OG_Gleep]

Yes..thats it. Thanks IH.

Saber - Theres a difference between playing within the given ruleset, and abuse, and as you said, that is abusing the level system. That is akin to activating god mode in my book. Now, jumping up and down while you run to raise your skill = playing within the ruleset.

And everyone would jump on someone saying "I hate dominions, with unlimited pretender creation points, the game is too easy". If you have some wierd need to use exploits in every game...well...theres always an exploit in every game. The AI can't handle when the player does certain things, or say there is a flaw in the combat system that lets you not take damage....if you feel compelled to do these things, then you must hate SP games. Unfortunatley gamers will find these types of flaws in games, but your the first person who insisted that they must be used.

[Endoperez]

OG_Gleep said:
Saber - Theres a difference between playing within the given ruleset, and abuse, and as you said, that is abusing the level system. That is akin to activating god mode in my book. Now, jumping up and down while you run to raise your skill = playing within the ruleset.

It depends on how the game is balanced. I can see why she'd rather wait until the modders have improved the system. She seems to have very analytic mind, in that she understands what different formula and rules actually mean, and can come up with better ways to use those rules to her advantage. I can imagine it is harder to like games, if their flaws are more apparent.

SC didn't say that those flaws that exist must be used. She just said that she doesn't like doing that unless she is teaching someone else to do better, and in SP games, she shouldn't have to. A game should be a challenge. I woldn't compare that to cheating for unlimited design points, but to e.g. noticing that Vampire Queen is much more powerful as a combatant than as a rainbow pretender. The Illwinter guys hadn't thought of the Vampire Queen in the battlefield, and her cost was heavily increased in the following patch after her introduction. It could also be compared to using magical summons instead of national units. Not relying extensively on summons is not feasible in multiplayer DomII. The game wasn't meant to be played that way, but the game just works that way.

Mind you, she hasn't said that Oblivion is a bad game, just that it could be better. She also said:

But I'd rather miss "X" now and enjoy "3X" later than enjoy "X" now and miss "3X" later. I think you are eating pie dough because you can't wait for the pie

[Cainehill]

Saber Cherry said:
...I agree with both of those (well, except for the 'best' part). But I'd rather miss "X" now and enjoy "3X" later than enjoy "X" now and miss "3X" later. I think you are eating pie dough because you can't wait for the pie

Heh. Sounds like someone is seriously craving a pie fix.

I definately agree about MorrowWind's skill / leveling up system : retarded, lame, not fun, counterintuitive. Prop a book on the keyboard to keep the character jumping? Sheesh. Or - wear the heaviest armor you can find, and find the smallest rat to attack you for a few hours, to build up armor skill.

Thanks for reminding me why I haven't started Morrowind up in a couple months.

[Vicious Love]

Just chiming in to agree with pretty much all of SC's comments. Methinks the problem really does have to do with the world being so static. The world just kind of lies around and waits for you to outsmart it, on your own terms and in your own time. Which always comes too soon, as the world is none too bright. You really have to go out of your way to avoid stumbling onto one of the dozen gameplay-crippling exploits, and all the metagaming this necessitates makes everything seem so artificial.