Oblivion

[Saber Cherry]

Graeme Dice said:
Or, one could make the converse argument. If you focus on their secondary skills, they end up overpowered. If you game the system, then you end up with more powerful characters than if you don't. This is hardly new to either the RPG genre or the Elder Scrolls games.

Either way is the same. I like to play games that are fairly challenging throughout, but in Morrowind it was like walking on a balance beam - pick the wrong skill, play the wrong way, and suddenly the game is too easy or too hard... but you never know if you're playing too well or too badly until it's too late. In a normal RPG, there is self balance, such that if you get too powerful you can go to a "more difficult area" with commensurate rewards, and if you are too weak you can go to an "easier area". In Morrowind/Oblivion, there is no such option - when you become off-balance on either side, you just keep falling.

[shovah]

well theres always the difficulty slider which has a big impact (at minimum lvl i killed something with 3 shots and at max it was 10-20)

[OG_Gleep]

A lot of people have turned to the console to correct mistakes.

But what you said is true of most non-action RPGs that let you create a character....regardless of system (skill or xp). This can happen in MMO's as well, and that is painful.

You make roll a character or party, only to find out that you nerfed yourself because: the selections you made were nerfed to begin with, were nerfed because they were overpowered, or will be nerfed in a future update. In the D&D based systems I'll spend hours re-rolling parties because I found the selections I made weren't working, or I found something that worked and I needed more of it. Actually, I spent more time re-rolling playing the Exp type RPGs than I ever did in any of the Daggerfall series. In most CRPGs, the difficulty tends to continually ramp up. Maybe if you gave me some examples of games that let you go to "easier" or "hard" areas it would jog my memory.

Action RPGs or Actionish type RPGs are exceptions, because once you choose a class, the options players are given are mostly cosmetic. And a lot of times they do have "areas" like MMO's, where areas were ment to be played by characters in a set level range.

But as far as traditional CRPGs go, I can't think of an example like you mentioned, as most CRPGs are pretty linear.

[Saber Cherry]

OG_Gleep said:
But as far as traditional CRPGs go, I can't think of an example like you mentioned, as most CRPGs are pretty linear.

I was thinking about console RPGs

For computers, I can offer Diablo II and most MMORPGs. Wizardry 8, on the other hand, leveled with you and thus had some of the same problems as Oblivion - though to a much lesser degree. In W8 the character level was tied to experience, while skills were tied to use; thus, the two were mostly independant, and it worked well.

[PrinzMegaherz]

Saber Cherry said:

For computers, I can offer Diablo II and most MMORPGs. Wizardry 8, on the other hand, leveled with you and thus had some of the same problems as Oblivion - though to a much lesser degree. In W8 the character level was tied to experience, while skills were tied to use; thus, the two were mostly independant, and it worked well.

While most people would disagree with Diablo being a rpg, I think the Diablo system has both it's advantages and flaws. For example, it gives you no reason to go into the "easier" areas once you are too experienced, meaning that in the upper levels you will see a lot of hell and nothing else. This get's boring very fast, and I prefer the multitude of settings you can enjoy while having a challenge in Oblivon.

[Gandalf Parker]

Diablo II is one that I enjoyed enough that I would enjoy it just as much if they redid it and offered it with no changes other than new maps. And even if they only worked in local mode.

As for the thing about usual keypresses not working, thats usually a sign that its being written for another platform.

[OG_Gleep]

Diablo falls into the Action RPG category, which can't be compared to traditional RPGs like Baldurs Gate and Oblivion.

And a MMO is inherently different then a offline RPG. MMO's can make design choices that aren't feasible in a offline RPG and vise versa.

I never did play Wizardry 8, so have no experience to respond from. But it sounds like you are more into the action/strategy RPGs then traditional crpgs. I enjoy all three, but trying to compare them because they share three letters may be where your going wrong. Most people lump them into the same category but imho they are three sperate genres.

Shining Force - Fire Emblem - Buck Rogers - Final Fantasy Tactics - Fallout Tactics

Diablo - Dungeon Seige - Xmen - Untold Legends - Never Winter Nights

Baldurs Gate - PlanetScape Torment - Pools of Radience - Oblivion - Wizardy - Ultima

While comparisions work within the grouping, they just don't work once you start trying to compare them to games outside their genre. I think its a crying shame that games like Ground Control are compared to Warcraft. Take resource gathering/base building out of an RTS and its not a RTS anymore.

The complaint I have about Oblivion, and I had about Morrowind is that the ceiling is way too low as far as loot and monster tables are concered. I don't think they added any new armor or weapon types in Oblivion and that is just a shame. I hit the "highest" weapon and armor options way before I was even close to being done with my character development. I am level 23 now, and should have a full suit of the top teir heavy armor soon, and have the best stock weapon available.

For me, part of the fun of RPGs (both on and offline) is getting new "stuff". I love getting loot, looking in every container possible, and don't mind making multipe trips back to town just to make sure I got everything worthwhile. But with so few options, I will reach the ceiling for both weapons and armor in a couple more dungeon romps.....and I'm have only done the very first steps in Main quest. Because I have access to every available skill, theres not much incentive for me to replay the game....my play time will likely end when this character does.

So for me, its dissapointing that my main incentive to dungeon romp is about to dissapear. Yes mods are an option, but I'm not a graphic wiz, and I hate mods that use my old armor graphics, to "represent" something totally new.

Also, for such a big game, the monster table is surprisingly small. They should have had more "stuff" so that combat and exploring stay interesting as long as possible.

Have mods with new graphics even come out yet? Most of the mods I have tried have been cosmetic or tweaks of some kind.

BTW if you haven't tried it, BTMod is awesome. They zoomed out the interface a bit...the inventory has 15 lines now instead of 6 for example. They changed almost every gui/interface related screen in some way. The map is zoomed out, which I like a lot better. Theres also a "pre-configured" options package available that provides screenshots of the different options, and instructions on how to install the files. The only complaint I had was the actual inventory screen..it was a little too small for me, so I had someone switch it to 10 lines, which is perfect. If anyone wants the file let me know.

[alexti]

Saber Cherry said:

I was thinking about console RPGs

For computers, I can offer Diablo II and most MMORPGs. Wizardry 8, on the other hand, leveled with you and thus had some of the same problems as Oblivion - though to a much lesser degree. In W8 the character level was tied to experience, while skills were tied to use; thus, the two were mostly independant, and it worked well.

I think in Wizardry 8 only random encounters were scaled with your party level, not predefined areas. So it was much less of a problem.

Other good examples of RPG that allowed you to go pretty much anywhere you want are Star Control 2, Betrayal at Krondor and Wizardry 7.