Shermans vs T-34s

[whdonnelly]

One possibiliy for the T-34s reputation could be the opposition. The T-34 faced a lot of the earlier German and Italian models, (PzKfw 2,Pz 35t, Pz 38, etc)that the Sherman never got to meet. The T-34 outclassed all these in armor, weapon, and mobility.
By the Korean War the T-34 and Sherman were both a little long in the tooth, but effective against infantry.
Will

[cbo]

whdonnelly said:
One possibiliy for the T-34s reputation could be the opposition. The T-34 faced a lot of the earlier German and Italian models, (PzKfw 2,Pz 35t, Pz 38, etc)that the Sherman never got to meet. The T-34 outclassed all these in armor, weapon, and mobility.
By the Korean War the T-34 and Sherman were both a little long in the tooth, but effective against infantry.
Will

I think you hit the nail on the head.

The T34s reputation was gained in 1941 when it was all but impervious to German 37mm anti-tank gun fire and thus gave the German infantry a real scare. It was also quite a challenge for the 3,7cm and 5cm tanks and made it hard to handle for the German tanks. And with its 76mm gun, it could sit a kilometer away and calmly pick off German tanks from a stationary position where the command and control issues of the two man turret didn't matter that much. With the introduction of the 7,5cm tank and anti-tank guns (and the remanufactured ex-Soviet 7,62cm gun) in 1942, that advantage was rapidly declining and the introduction of the T34/85 only improved things in terms of firepower, not protection.

In the case of the Sherman, it was introduced in battle at a time (late 1942) when the Germans, forced by events in Russia, had already moved on in the gun/armour race. Had the Germans run into Shermans in 1941, they would've been just as shocked as they were about the T34. So by the time it was introduced into combat, the Sherman was a good medium tank but no more than that.
The Sherman really gained its bad reputation in Normandy in 1944 when most allied tankers were fighting in old 1942 and 1943 models with 75mm guns, experiencing much of what the Germans had in 1941 in Russia - their tanks could easily be knocked out by the opposition while their own guns were struggling to deal with enemy tanks. The Soviets had the same problems with their T34/76s in 1943 and 44, but that is something people tend to forget.
The Soviets dealt with the problem by introducing the T34/85 during 1944 and the US did exactly the same by introducing the Sherman with the 76mm gun at the same time. The difference was the bureaucratic infighting (and the failure to make a good 76mm HE round) in the US Army, which meant that 75mm armed tanks were still being produced in numbers while the Soviets switched completely to the 85mm armed tank. But that doesn't change the fact that a 1944/45 76mm armed Sherman was just as good or bad as a 85mm armed T34 of the same period.

Claus B

[Marek_Tucan]

whdonnelly said:
One possibiliy for the T-34s reputation could be the opposition. The T-34 faced a lot of the earlier German and Italian models, (PzKfw 2,Pz 35t, Pz 38, etc)that the Sherman never got to meet. The T-34 outclassed all these in armor, weapon, and mobility.

Bingo! Cannot agree more! Had Sherman encountered PaK-36 and Pz-IIIE's/Pz-38(t)'s in the North Africa, it would fare probably even better than T-34 due to better ergonomics etc. But it was faced by first Tigers and by long-barrelled 75mm guns instead...

[Mobhack]

Marek_Tucan said:

Bingo! Cannot agree more! Had Sherman encountered PaK-36 and Pz-IIIE's/Pz-38(t)'s in the North Africa, it would fare probably even better than T-34 due to better ergonomics etc. But it was faced by first Tigers and by long-barrelled 75mm guns instead...

That will be the tiger tanks on the battlefield of El Alamein in October 1942, then?. Nope - the Allies first met the tigger in Tunisia. British in Feb 43, USA apparently later in 1943, at Fais Pass. (I do not have a precise date for that)).

At El Alamein, the main German force would have been PzIII, both long and still some short barreled 50mm versions. Shermans could deal with these. A few long barreled 75mm PzIv would be present, which would be a problem for the early Sherman.

However - the Sherman/75mm is a useful tank (WRT tank killing) from El Alamein till Tunisia in SPWW2. I tend to go for the Cromwell when that arrives as the 6pr is a better AT Gun (and its speed allows "cavalry tactics" as with the T-34), or 6pr Churchills as these are reasonably resistant to the 75mms (but s l o w).

The Sherman then becomes interesting again when the 76 or Firefly editions arrive. But the 75mm version still can be used as a main battle tank till these arrive, if you are careful, and prepare the advance with arty and keep mech infantry up close, and avoid long range duels or advancing over wide open fields of fire (use smoke!).

The advantage with the T-34 (once even the long 50 becomes common and its armour starts to get permeable) is it's speed, as the German tanks are not that fast, and all including Panther are vulnerable from the side. But later on I get interested in some KV or IS as the "sluggers" with 34s as the flankers. The 34 I use as a supporting APC to the carried guard rifle section with AT mines, of course!.

Naturally - in the Pacific, the Sherman is overkill (the Tiger of the PTO! . I find Stuarts will do the job against Japanese tanks, as the main line tank.

The Bovinton tank museum journal for the restoration of Tiger #301 (captured in Tunisia) can be found here: http://www.tiger-tank.com/secure/journal.htm

cheers
Andy

[Marek_Tucan]

Mobhack said:


That will be the tiger tanks on the battlefield of El Alamein in October 1942, then?. Nope - the Allies first met the tigger in Tunisia. British in Feb 43, USA apparently later in 1943, at Fais Pass. (I do not have a precise date for that)).

At El Alamein, the main German force would have been PzIII, both long and still some short barreled 50mm versions. Shermans could deal with these. A few long barreled 75mm PzIv would be present, which would be a problem for the early Sherman.

I had there the "long barrelled IV's" as well ;o) But in American service, the Tigers came in rather soon after the beginning of combat. And even PzIII with short 50mm is more combat capable than the 37mm popgun. So the point is that when the Sherman entered battlefield there already were tanks that can reliably kill it at longer ranges while the T-34, when first appeared, was in much better position.

However - the Sherman/75mm is a useful tank (WRT tank killing) from El Alamein till Tunisia in SPWW2. I tend to go for the Cromwell when that arrives as the 6pr is a better AT Gun (and its speed allows "cavalry tactics" as with the T-34), or 6pr Churchills as these are reasonably resistant to the 75mms (but s l o w).

Oh yes, didn't argue with that, Sherman is definitely a battle-capable tank on par with T-34 except the speed (but then again usually more machineguns). Regarding the armor protection, Sherman 75 is comparable with Panzers. As for the Cromwell, I kinda like this one too. With 6pdr, that is.

The Sherman then becomes interesting again when the 76 or Firefly editions arrive. But the 75mm version still can be used as a main battle tank till these arrive, if you are careful, and prepare the advance with arty and keep mech infantry up close, and avoid long range duels or advancing over wide open fields of fire (use smoke!).

And use artillery to beat up bad boys enough for them to retreat quickly after the tanks reach them;o)

The advantage with the T-34 (once even the long 50 becomes common and its armour starts to get permeable) is it's speed, as the German tanks are not that fast, and all including Panther are vulnerable from the side. But later on I get interested in some KV or IS as the "sluggers" with 34s as the flankers.

Yes, the T-34/KV-1 combo in these roles are my favourites as well. KV-1's with their heavier armour, more ammo and a crew of five (ie higher ROF) are ideal to tie up the enemy.

Naturally - in the Pacific, the Sherman is overkill (the Tiger of the PTO! . I find Stuarts will do the job against Japanese tanks, as the main line tank.

I remember reading somewhere that somewhere the Sherman tankers have found their AP shells are flying right through the Japanese tanks without detonating as the armour was too thin to set off the fuse...

The Bovinton tank museum journal for the restoration of Tiger #301 (captured in Tunisia) can be found here: http://www.tiger-tank.com/secure/journal.htm

cheers
Andy

Just found our miitary technical museum owns a Sherman M4A1(76) Didn't know that...

[cbo]

Mobhack said:
That will be the tiger tanks on the battlefield of El Alamein in October 1942, then?. Nope - the Allies first met the tigger in Tunisia. British in Feb 43, USA apparently later in 1943, at Fais Pass. (I do not have a precise date for that)).

Allow me to nitpick a little

The first three Tigers (s.PzAbt 501) landed in North Africa (Tunesia) on 23rd November 1942 and was in combat on the 25th in the Djedida/Medjez el Bab area. IIRC the allied forces in the area were a mix of British and US forces (tanks).
More Tigers arrived in the following days and weeks and apparently had a field day knocking out Stuarts, which the allies continued to use as real tanks at this time

Claus B