Killing Infantry

[Krotos]

Thaks for the advice fellows.

Now please take what I am about to say in the spirit it is offered...it is not a complaint...just an observation.

I feel that in both this game as well as SPWaW, infantry is simply too resillient and too quick to rally. In some ways, they behave like fanatical automatons. Put yourselves in the position of the average infantryman and consider finding yourselves in the following scenario -- then tell me if you would react as I describe our hypothetical infantry behaves.

You are a member of a dismounted infantry platoon moving through a confined clearing towards a suspected enemy position some 300 m distant. All of a sudden, 120 mm mortar fire begins to rain down on you like hail. Explosions erupt all around you as men and body parts fly through the air amid the horrid cries of torment of the dead and dying. When the smoke clears, 60% of your platoon is wiped out and now you are taking fire from the position you had been advancing against killing scores more. You cringe in a crater hole preying for deliverance when you Platoon Seargent yells some words of encouragement which make you forget your perdiciment and even dispell the systemic shock you are suffering. You and the surviving members of the platoon rally to his call and renew your advance toward the entrenched enemy line in the distance. More of your comrades fall -- and once again the seargent rallys you up -- you press on. Eventually, you and the 5 or 10 survivors of your platoon find yourself 50 m from the enemy line -- a line populated by over 100 entrenched enemies pouring fire down on you...but you press on to the bitter end...after all, you are a russian soldier."

Does that sound like the reaction of the average soldier. I am no coward, but I can tell you for sure, it wouldn't be my reaction.

Krotos

[narwan]

Hi Krotos,

also see my reply in another thread; 'kills' in the game are not only actual kills but include woundend and those fleeing the battlefield individually, putting them effectively beyond the ability of commanders to rally them within the short time span of the game. The 'surviving' members of the squads in your example are those men (maybe that handful that is NOT average) that stand their ground and for some reason are willing to keep going.

Narwan

[Basileus]

Hi all. I just noticed that infantry hits in WinSPMBT are now labeled "casualties", which is accurate and better than "kills".

As far as rally goes, I am reminded of Kurt 'Panzer' Meyer's story about the Greek campaign of 1941:

"We glue ourselves behind rocks and dare not move. A feeling of nausea tightens my throat. I yell to Emil Wawrzinek to get the attack moving. But the good Emil just looks at me as if he has doubts about my sanity. Machine-gun fire smacks against the rocks in front of us...how can I get Wawrzinek to take that first leap? In my distress, I feel the smooth roundness of an egg hand grenade in my hand. I shout at the group. Everybody looks thunderstruck at me as I brandish the hand grenade, pull the pin, and roll it precisely behind the last man. Never again did I witness such a concerted leap forward as at that second. As if bitten by tarantulas, we dive around the rock spur and into a fresh crater. The spell is broken. The hand grenade has cured our lameness. We grin at each other, and head forward toward the next cover." - Kurt 'Panzer' Meyer, "Grenadiere"

Basileus

[pdoktar]

Yeah, right. I would kill the good-old grenade throwing squad leader if any of us survived the attack. This guy wouldn´t make me grin and respect the leader afterwards.

[Basileus]

pdoktar said:
Yeah, right. I would kill the good-old grenade throwing squad leader if any of us survived the attack. This guy wouldn´t make me grin and respect the leader afterwards.

I hear you. I'd rather be led by someone like the stoic Sgt.Rock hollering "C'MON, EASY!" myself than have some lob a grenade at me. Then again, it's probably a cultural difference...a WW2 Japanese officer could rally their troops into a suicide charge with a wave of his katana and a "Hail to the Emperor", while Belisarius' Thracian Bucellarii didn't even need such encouragement to rush to his aid when he got himself ambushed by the Goths at Rome. As others have said, Panzer Meyer wasn't exactly a nice guy. But he understood the danger of losing the momentum of the assault and getting pinned by enemy fire; in SPMBT, if you stay in one spot for more than a couple turns, even the AI will stonk you with artillery, and that will certainly be fatal.

Basileus

[DRG]

Basileus said:
Hi all. I just noticed that infantry hits in WinSPMBT are now labeled "casualties", which is accurate and better than "kills".
Basileus

Infantry hits have been labled "casualties" since 1998. It was one of the first changes we made to the games when we were working on SP2WW2 and it's been that way ever since

Don

[Krotos]

Hey all,

Actually, Basileus' quote from Kurt Meyer makes my point for me. Meyer was hardly what one could term "the average soldier" or leader.

Here is a summary of Meyer taken from his Allied interogators.

"Meyer embodied the conception of the fanatical Nazi who would fight to the death for his beloved Fuhrer. Few German officers could claim more combat experience than Meyer, who had begun his service with the SS in 1933 as a member of Hitler's elite bodyguard. In 1939, he fought in Poland, and in 1940, in Holland and France. As a regimental commander he played leading role in the Greek campaign. According to his interrogation report, when Hitler invaded Russia he was at the forefront of the drive to the east.
"For three years he fought in Russia reaching almost the furthest point to be achieved by German forces, deep in the remote Caucasus. Three times he was completely encircled by Russian forces, during the retreat, and fought his way out with a handful of survivors...To him the battle of Caen-Falaise was magnificent in the best Wagnerian tradition. As he described his actions and those of his men, it seemed as though he liked to consider himself as Siegfried leading his warriors to their deaths."

Fom: Interrogation of SS Major General Kurt Meyer, n.d. ,German Generals Collection. Liddell Hart Papers, King's College, London.

I don't think men of Meyer's metal were or are all that common.

Krotos

[Krotos]

Hey all,

Here is yet another quote concerning Kurt Meyer.

"Kurt Meyer was a classic example of the aggressive and ruthless Waffen-SS officer. He was a first rate leader who pushed his troops (and himself) to their limits. In a periodic review, he was characterized by Sepp Dietrich, the commander of the LAH, as a passionate soldier, which he certainly was. During his interrogation by the Canadians shortly after the war, Meyer viewed the struggle in Normandy as "magnificent in the best Wagnerian tradition. As he described his actions and those of his men, it seemed as though he liked to consider himself as Siegfried leading his warriors to their death."

"The Valour and the Horror" Web Site

The point is, men like Meyer may even be able to rally the dead, but the average officer or NCO is not made of similar metal. In SPMBT, all of the squad leaders appear to be Kurt Meyer clones.

Krotos

[pdoktar]

Siegfried leading his warriors to their death. Yet he survived the war. Considering his superior morale and fighting skill and commitment, it is a bit surprising. Maybe he too layed low during the worst engagements.. to survive to fight another day, or just shivering with fear like the rest of us would.

[Basileus]

Krotos said:
The point is, men like Meyer may even be able to rally the dead, but the average officer or NCO is not made of similar metal. In SPMBT, all of the squad leaders appear to be Kurt Meyer clones.

Krotos

Agreed, such "super rally" leaders should be few and far inbetween, probably best represented with high leadership quotients for specific individuals rather than overall troop quality ratings. The default infantry toughness in SPMBT does seem high, but it's also a double-edged sword in that if you're playing a Western nationality, your own troops should be more prone to look after their casualties than the game's infantry toughness quotient may suggest. In the old GDW map-and-counters game called "Phase Line Smash", the designers made an interesting note regarding disruption (their version of pinned/retreat, which means Coalition units can't attack after taking hits until auto-recovery next turn):

"So how come the Coalition units are such a bunch of babies with no combat ability when disrupted, and the (Iraqis) are hairy-chested warriors who keep fighting even when they're down? Most of this is due to the differences in scale, Coalition battalions vs. (Iraqi) brigades, but also because when a Coalition unit is hit, it does stop as soon as possible to take care of casualties and to regroup before continuing the fight. A diagnostic feature of (Coalition) units is that they will stop and focus their attention on the care of even one casualty in the middle of a firefight. And don't think it's because they're a bunch of babies. It is that very same team cohesion that makes them such excellent fighters. Soldiers don't fight very well when they know no one gives a damn. On the other hand, you have the Iraqis, who didn't fight very well, because they know no one did, and were defeated before they started. At the same time, their command and control was so godawful that they might as well keep fighting when disrupted, they're not that much more in the dark now than they were before, anyway. Coalition units used sophisticated doctrines and operations that did require them to stop, regroup, and sort things out before continuing. And their terrifying effectiveness when doing so proves the wisdom of taking an extra moment to do it right" - probably Dave Nilsen (parenthetical paraphrasing for clarity)

Basileus