Bar vs FG42 is it a draw?

[Tarrif]

Under no conditions should the B.A.R. be better than the FG-42 unless you are talking about production. At the very least they should be equal, but the reality is that the FG-42 is a much better infantry support weapon than the B.A.R. could ever hope to be. That's why the U.S. adopted the M-60, a weapon based on the FG-42, years after the B.A.R. was declared obscolete.

[pdoktar]

The FG-42 is in the first weapon slot as OTHER rifles, smgs, whatever, that are used as a rifle-type weapon. BAR is in the second slot, where infantry squads has their SQUAD AUTOMATIC WEAPON or LMG.

So FG-42 has the same characters as a AK-47 has in WinSPMBT of acc. 1 and kill 3.

BAR has the same characters as a modern RPD Squad Automatic Weapon in WinSPMBT of acc. 21 and kill 5

So the point is that BAR is the SAW or LMG not a rifle as this FG-42. That´s why it has so much higher accuracy and range, being used as squad base-of-fire weapon, and this is encrypted into the game code, think I.

Rifles are genric weapons in a infantry squad, even with differing kill stats. That is modeled into the game and represents several rifles at the same time, in the hands of different individuals. Accuracy and kill factor is really more related to each individuals skill than the nominal accuracy of the weapon he is using as a shoulder fired rifle. Actually in combat statistic show that only 30% of soldiers use and fire their personal weapon as intended or trained. SAW and LMGs use the volume of fire and a kill zone it creates itself, supporting their weapon usually in to the ground, thus giving a more stable firing platform and maybe the mental state of firing at the enemy, not just the sky or whatever else with shoulder fired snap-shots.

Every infantry squad counts for their LMG or SAW to do most of the real killing and suppressing in the battlefield. Their accurate fire can cover the whole squad if riflemen are found in tricky situations.

[pdoktar]

If there would be a heavy-barrel SAW version of the FG-42, then it could be used in SAW/LMG slot and would probably receive higher accuracy and kill ratings than the BAR.

Unbelievable. I made my point almost in a sentence!

[narwan]

FG 42's in the first slot do NOT represent just a single weapon firing just as a Lee Enfield in the first slot does not represent a single weapon.
Wouldn't you agree it would be a bit silly to have the fixed stats represent a variable, ie the number of riflemen left in a squad?

Which is the whole point of the current stats and stat differences btw. This is, for infantry, a SQUAD based game. Not an individuals riflemans game. That means the game has to incorporate the SOP, doctrines, tactics, etc within a squad in it's mechanics. As Pdoktar already pointed out, troops armed with the FG 42 are basically riflemen in the squad, not surrogate SAW gunners. The game is a lot more than just a collection of weapon statistics.


Narwan

[chuckfourth]

Hi Narwan
Well as for SOP, doctrines,tactics I can add this.
The normal infantry practice is for half the rifle squad to bound forward some few metres hit the dirt, take up a fire positions and then provide covering fire for the other halfs bound. This is done while the LMG suppreses the target.
In this situation in the FG42 armed paratrooper rifle squad you will have 3 FG42s firing from a stationary prone position at any one time, surely enough justification to give the rifle squad at least the same acc/hit values as the single BAR gets in the same role? And what about on the defence? You have all 7 of the rifle squads FG42 being used exactly like the single BAR yet all 7 added together only get one twentieth of a single BARS accuracy value?

The current FG42 values seem to be based on the assumption that the FG42 is never used in a stationary or prone position wich doesnt make much sense to me. If just one of the 7 or so FG42's in the rifle squad is being used in the stationary prone position (which is pretty likely in almost any situation) then this first 'rifleman' weapon slot for FG42 should have the same or better value than the BAR slot.
Regards Chuck.

[narwan]

Whereas you want us to have every FG42 fired from a 'prone' or SAW role EVERY time.

[chuckfourth]

Hi Narwan
No that would be about as sensible as the current situation where all 7 are being fired from the shoulder into the air on the move even when the squad is dug in and stationary
But thank you for asking.
This is the sloution I would propose.
BAR does not have a quick change barrel and AFAIK is not employed with a number 2, unlike every other nations LMG. To remedy this a second BAR was introduced into the squad, so now we have a quick change barrel of sorts (second weapon) and twice as much ammo (still less than a three man LMG team carries, or even a two man team as the second BAR weighs a lot) So rather than representing 2 Bars in a sqad as 2 weapon slots the 2 BAR sqaud could lose the second BAR slot and the remaining BAR slot retains the current single BAR slot values ie acc 20, hit 5. Now for the single BAR squad's BAR weapon slot we would now have values of 10 and 2.5(lets say 2). AS BAR and FG42 have nearly identicle in-game performance, this gives us a guide to how to model the FG42 rifle squads weapon slot. Assuming that a least 2 of the FG42s are operating in the stationary prone position during movement (not unreaslonable I would think if the squad has any training whatsoever) then the paratrooper FG42 rifle slot should have acc 20 hit 5. Obviously this is a gross underestimation of the squads firepower when in a defensive position ie 7 FG42 in stationary prone but is much more credible than the current acc 1 hit 3
Also of interest the game models FG42 range at 400m rather than the correct 800m
Regards Chuck.

[chuckfourth]

pdoktar said:So the point is that BAR is the SAW or LMG not a rifle as this FG-42.

The point is that FG42 is a better SAW/LMG than BAR and that both are automatic rifles.

Regards Chuck.

[narwan]

The point is the FG42 was employed as a riflemans weapon, not a SAW. The BAR was. That's figured into the stats too, not just pure weapon statistics.


Narwan