Bar vs FG42 is it a draw?

[Tarrif]

My involvement in this discussion is purely academic - I don't play this game (although it looks interesting). That being said, for a game that *seems* to pride itself on historical accuracy and reality, I'm surprised that it would classify the FG-42 as a rifle since that wasn't it's intended role.

Because of the nature of airborne troops they needed to pack a lot of features into a light-weight weapon. It *could* be used as a rifle, but its primary role was to provide LMG support to the squad. The FG-42 is a specialist type of weapon. It could shoot like a rifle if it had to, but could function as a LMG as well. I wouldn't call it a SAW as we define them today - but as many authors have said - the FG-42 was the basis for which many pre-modern and modern SAW's are designed.

To classify it as a rifle, and to limit its game functions to that of a rifle, is historicaly and technically inaccurate. If that's the case, you might as well classify the B.A.R., Bren, etc., as rifles as well - because they technically *could* be used that way, even if its not what they were primarily designed for.

[cbo]

Tarrif said:
My involvement in this discussion is purely academic - I don't play this game (although it looks interesting). That being said, for a game that *seems* to pride itself on historical accuracy and reality, I'm surprised that it would classify the FG-42 as a rifle since that wasn't it's intended role.

The correct term in the game is "primary infantry weapon", which includes rifles, submachineguns, assault rifles etc. As the FG42 was issued (AFAIK) as the primary infantry weapon, that classification seems warranted. In the game, a typical platoon with the FG42 would have it as the main weapon (firepower multiplied by the number of men in the squad) with an MG42 as weapon number two and some handgrenades or Panzerfaust as weapon number three and four, filling all available slots.

Because of the nature of airborne troops they needed to pack a lot of features into a light-weight weapon. It *could* be used as a rifle, but its primary role was to provide LMG support to the squad. The FG-42 is a specialist type of weapon. It could shoot like a rifle if it had to, but could function as a LMG as well. I wouldn't call it a SAW as we define them today - but as many authors have said - the FG-42 was the basis for which many pre-modern and modern SAW's are designed.

If - and that is the assumption in the game - the FG42 was issued to most of the squad and that squad also had a proper machinegun (MG34/42), it seems hard to justify it as
a "specialist" weapon. I doubt you would have 6 or 7 man firing their belt-fed FG42s from the tripod, another 2 men manning the MG34/42, all supporting the squad leader as he charged the enemy.

Seems to me that with the high number of FG42s in the squad, it would primarily have been used as an automatic rifle, not as a light machinegun. And that is the issue here: The use of the weapon, not its statistics.

If Chuck wants that changed, he should not look at weapons statistics, but at fieldmanuals and unit histories dealing with the organisation and tactics of the units that used the weapon.

Incidentally, we are wasting all this bandwhith on a weapon that is used in four (4) units out of 800-900 German units in the game....

Claus B

[Tarrif]

Well this brings up another important issue: Why are there so many FG-42's available per squad in this game? The often quoted total production number of FG-42's is about 7000 - even by the most reputable of authors. Split between the tens of thousands of men in the Fallschrimjaeger units between 1942 and 1945, that would leave a hanful per platoon and perhaps one or two in a squad. That's a liberal estimate.

If you are really looking for historically accurate weapon distribution among the squads/platoons then the FG-42 would *NOT* be a primary weapon. It should be considered a special weapon like the Panzerscheck, PzB39, etc. The only instance I can think of where many FG-42's were used at the squad level is during Skorzney's rescue of Mussolini - and that was more of a commando operation and not a real representation of a regular Fallschrimjaeger operation.

The real crux of the problem seems to be that - in this game - the FG-42 is being issued to the majority of men in a squad and so the game creators nerfed it for the sake of keeping the game balanced. This simply was not, nor could it be, the situation historically.

[cbo]

Tarrif said:
Well this brings up another important issue: Why are there so many FG-42's available per squad in this game? The often quoted total production number of FG-42's is about 7000 - even by the most reputable of authors. Split between the tens of thousands of men in the Fallschrimjaeger units between 1942 and 1945, that would leave a hanful per platoon and perhaps one or two in a squad. That's a liberal estimate.

If you are really looking for historically accurate weapon distribution among the squads/platoons then the FG-42 would *NOT* be a primary weapon. It should be considered a special weapon like the Panzerscheck, PzB39, etc. The only instance I can think of where many FG-42's were used at the squad level is during Skorzney's rescue of Mussolini - and that was more of a commando operation and not a real representation of a regular Fallschrimjaeger operation.

The real crux of the problem seems to be that - in this game - the FG-42 is being issued to the majority of men in a squad and so the game creators nerfed it for the sake of keeping the game balanced. This simply was not, nor could it be, the situation historically.

It isn't in the game either. The FJ squad with the FG42 as the primary weapon is only one of many options. In, say, September 1944 you have 8 different squads to choose from of which 2 has the FG42, 2 has the StG44 and 4 has the Kar 98 rifle as their primary weapon. The player can choose what he wants here, but the computer will (in principle) choose equally among them, so you shouldn't end up with only FG42 armed units - in fact you are likely to end up with units mostly armed with rifles.

You could of course argue that there should also be units with a single FG42 as a secondary weapon with stats like an LMG, but considering the scope of the game and the fact that there is already numerous arms combinations for the FJ squads and the fact that there is 800-900 units in the German OOB, that is a very, very, very minor point. It just goes to show the fallacy of simply comparing stats without thinking about the game as a whole - as I think Narwan pointed out earlier.

But it is one of those things Chuck likes to persue.... endlessly....

Claus B

[Tarrif]

Well as I said before, I don't play this game or know very much about it. For me, this debate is purely academic. If the FG-42 needs to be the way it is now for the sake of game balance, then so be it. Not everything can be historically accurate and still keep things fair.

[cbo]

Tarrif said:
Well as I said before, I don't play this game or know very much about it. For me, this debate is purely academic. If the FG-42 needs to be the way it is now for the sake of game balance, then so be it. Not everything can be historically accurate and still keep things fair.

I think the game is historically accurate in the sense that the values for the FG42 is consistent with its use as an automatic rifle and that it was used as such during WW2.

The FG42 may have had other uses or issed to units in ways that are not portrayed in the game, but that only means that you may add a clone of the weapon as an LMG and create yet another FJ formation, differently equipped. When it comes to small arms, you could make endless variations and easily fill the 999 unit slots on the OOB - and probably another 999 without any problems. At some point, the OOB designers have to stop fiddling, even if it means neglecting some players pet units/weapons/formations. Those players can then fiddle on themselves - unless of course they are too lazy to do so

Claus B

[Tarrif]

cbo said:
I think the game is historically accurate in the sense that the values for the FG42 is consistent with its use as an automatic rifle and that it was used as such during WW2.

Based on the numbers I've seen, it's values for use as an automatic rifle are far below what they should be - using other automatic rifles (namely the B.A.R.) to set the standard.