Panzergrenadiers

[Wiem1938]

Um... Can I point out that the TOE for SPW mounted Panzergrenadiers is grossly inaccurate? Proper structure at platoon level should be:
1: 5xmen, kar98k+handgrenade+panzerfaust. (platoon leader)
2: 9xmen, kar98k+2xMG42+handgrenade+panzerfaust
3: 9xmen, kar98k+2xMG42+handgrenade+panzerfaust
4: 9xmen, kar98k+2xMG42+handgrenade+panzerfaust
5: sd.251/10
6: sd.251/1
7: sd.251/1
8: sd.251/1

Richard

[DRG]

Can I point of that saying it's "grossly inaccurate?" is itself "grossly inaccurate?"

You don't say what year you are looking at

Yes, the structure after April 1940 included a 251/10 but they did not exist before that so if you were looking at the start of the war there are four 251/1. Starting 4/40 it's 3x 251/1 plus 1 251/10

We don't include the platoon leader as a separate unit. They get themselves killed too quickly in the game when they are identified that way especially when they are built into their own special understrength "section"

9+9+9+5= 32 men + 4 halftracks

10+10+10=30 men + 4 halftracks

It's a compromise between game play and reality.

Don

[MarkSheppard]

We don't include the platoon leader as a separate unit. They get themselves killed too quickly in the game when they are identified that way especially when they are built into their own special understrength "section"

If I see someone named "platoon leader" I'm shooting him first.

[DRG]

Exactly.

Don

[thatguy96]

Not that I don't think this is fine for gameplay, but does this also happen in real life? The guy standing next the radioman gets picked off first?

[Marek_Tucan]

thatguy96 said:
Not that I don't think this is fine for gameplay, but does this also happen in real life? The guy standing next the radioman gets picked off first?

IIRC one of first things green troops in the frontline were told was not to salute their Lt as this is a sure giceaway of his rank to enemy snipers.

[Wiem1938]

My apologies to DRG. I should have stated the 1943 TOE as my working source, and this pattern is confirmed from the combat sources that I've had access to.
Also I should state that most of the game is SUPERB. I can heartily congratulate you guys at the CW for an excellent job. I've really enjoyed the WinSPMBT variant.
Given your points about playability, that I will concede... I'd forgotten the 'evilness' of real players!!!
However I can confirm that the 1943 SPW mounted pzgr troops did use two MG42's per section. This fits into German combat doctrine where the SPW pzgr troops were used in a heavy combat role, either as spearhead or firebrigade troops.
Would recommend an additional section per platoon, plus the modified section as standard. Also add to all late 1943 infantry/panzergrenadier companies 6xPanzerschrek teams.

An independent query... DRG, what is the evidence as to how widespread usage of the Stg44 was prior to autumn 1944? The TOE file has the Stg44 available from Jan 44.
Though from what I understand the Stg44 was not put into truly industrial scale production until the summer of 1944, and does not appear in any photographs or combat reports really until the autumn. Though it may have seen earlier use in the East.
I am also aware of the combat evaluation tests undertaken (chiefly by equipping a tried unit with the weapons and then asking questions - SS Wiking was one such unit in the autumn of 1943).

Thank you for your patience with me!
Richard

[DRG]

Wiem1938 said:

<snip>

However I can confirm that the 1943 SPW mounted pzgr troops did use two MG42's per section. This fits into German combat doctrine where the SPW pzgr troops were used in a heavy combat role, either as spearhead or firebrigade troops.
Would recommend an additional section per platoon, plus the modified section as standard. Also add to all late 1943 infantry/panzergrenadier companies 6xPanzerschrek teams.

I'll think about it. It *MIGHT* be possible to add a LMG team to each PzGren Platoon in 1943 and they could be carried in the /10 or /9 OR it might be possible to add a variation of the existing Pzgren unit with 2 LMG's but that would mean one of the other weapons would have to be left out. There is no room left in the PzGren Kp's to add 6xPanzerschrek teams. They would have to be added to the unit's which are used by the platoons which would mean adding some Panzerschrecks in place or panzerfausts. I'll consider this as well and consult with a few people

Wiem1938 said:
An independent query... DRG, what is the evidence as to how widespread usage of the Stg44 was prior to autumn 1944? The TOE file has the Stg44 available from Jan 44.
Though from what I understand the Stg44 was not put into truly industrial scale production until the summer of 1944, and does not appear in any photographs or combat reports really until the autumn. Though it may have seen earlier use in the East.
I am also aware of the combat evaluation tests undertaken (chiefly by equipping a tried unit with the weapons and then asking questions - SS Wiking was one such unit in the autumn of 1943).

Thank you for your patience with me!
Richard

One of my favorite subjects....

Wiking evaluated a version of that gun in the Spring of 1943 not the autumn. Approx 14,000 guns were delivered to the Wehrmacht in 1943 which when those production figures are put into a global warfare perspecive it gets mentions as "only".

8000 had been delivered by the middle of 1943 ( 2,800 Mkb.42(W)Walthers and 5,200 Mkb.42(H) Haenels )when the design was standardized as the MP43 using the Haenel design with the Walther firing system. The Walther was lighter and better balanced and more accurate but the Haenel was much simpler.

So, there were enough around at the beginning of 1944 to justify adding them to the OOB at that point but not really before then and it was not worth wasting weapon slots to give then their correct names for the dates they were known by before they were finally known as the "StG.44"

The one I own is stamped "MP43" and is serial number 2763/44p

Don

[Marek_Tucan]

DRG said:
So, there were enough around at the beginning of 1944 to justify adding them to the OOB at that point but not really before then and it was not worth wasting weapon slots to give then their correct names for the dates they were known by before they were finally known as the "StG.44"

What about changing the name to MP43/Stg.44?

[Wiem1938]

Cheers! That is very useful information. I've been experimenting with the SPW panzergrenadier coym myself, and I've managed to fit them in. When I have time, I'll post the file.
Richard