255 and 500 systems? Where?

[Strategia_In_Ultima]

Wade said:
Normally I'm only interested in "official" patches and expansions but more systems would be nice. I don't want a mod that alters the game AI/rules/mechanics.

Well, mate, then you're missing out on at least half the fun. Stock is not terrible per sé, but there are some issues, mainly to do with balance, that most people find annoying. In most (widely-used) mods, you will find no Quantum Reactor-type component, or if you do, it's a lot harder to get both research- and construction-wise. Stock AIs don't really fare very well against human players, seekers and fighters are next to useless in the late (often even late-middle) game, population is much too easy to scoot around (up to several dozen million in a medium-sized transport ship), et cetera et cetera. There are plenty mods that adress this, as well as many mods which change gameplay entirely - and for the better. In Fyron's masterpiece the Adamant Mod, you get to select whether your race is a "normal" technology-based race, an "organic" race using biological ships and such, or a medieval-age magic using one, and last I've heard, Fyron was working on adding Machine and Energy races. PvK's Proportions Mod radically improves the importance of homeworlds with their massive established infrastructure and makes population management highly important as even large transports can carry only a few M pop, and so on. Suicide Junkie's Carrier Battles Mod makes fighters a lot more important and forces you to build combined-arms fleets with a good mix of all available weapons, ships and fighters. And these are just the most well-known examples; there are many other fine mods out there. So, if you only use stock, you're really missing out

[Suicide Junkie]

Think of it this way:
- You've purchased the ability to play 10-20 great games. Why would you then insist on playing only the least refined one of them all?

Pretty much by definition, mods improve something. Aside from the little "joke" mods that you don't hear about much (Like the Rock-Paper-Scissors mod), Somebody spent a lot of time making the game *better*.
Better in their opinion, yes. But if they like it, and a lot of other people do too, shouldn't you see if you like it?

Spoon's Fantasy Empires Mod is a good one to add to the list. It has been consistently popular for years, according to my server logs. You may or may not like the whole elves and dwarves thing, but the mod is very well done and looks great. In case you were wondering, yes indeed, the game plays out on the surface of a planet, with swamps and forests and deserts and blizzards and people running around with swords and spells.

[Renegade 13]

Another very good mod that is definitely my favorite is the TDM Modpack.

It's a mod created by Tampa Gamer, Daynarr and Mephisto that makes the AI's a whole lot 'better'. It does not alter anything except how the AI's perform, but they act in a much more intelligent manner and are a much better opponent than stock AI's. I like the fact that all the technology, etc are exactly the same as stock, but the AI's are tweaked to use the stock system as best they can.

[Wade]

Thankyou all for the information. I probably would appreciate some aspects of some of the mods. I just can't bring myself to commit to them . Like I said, I've always found reason behind the designers "plan" in many games. Aside from the AI some times. Later I may consider the TDM Modpack and more races such as AtrocitiesRaces.

Not to be rude but just to state my opinion in response to yours; I want to comment on some of the mods.

I'm not sure yet what a Quantum Reactor-type component is (Space-Time Engine?) but Malfador must have thought it had it's place. A nuclear weapon (and many other technologies)is a huge imbalance in real life if the other does not have it but thats how a technology race works. Nations are working on defenses to this. Is there a stock balancer tech to Quantum Reactor; or is it just be equivalent in technology? Many nations in real life did not like not having nuclear technology so they too researched it.(Yes, I know it's just a game.)

How effective fighters and missiles are in the far future is arguable.

The space available on these transports is arguable.

In the stock race creation there is already options (although simplified) for regular tech, organic tech, and mechanoids.

Homeworlds already start with a good infrustructure.

"Least refined" is an opinion.

"Rock, paper, scissors" reminds me of Galactic Civilizations 2. An alright game but not the ultimate.

I didn't get this game for "fantasy". There are many other games for that. (Well I got it for science fiction "fantasy".)

But those are just my opinions and I'm just a newbie to you all. But, again, I'm gonna play awhile and then consider AI improvement and more races.

-Wade

[Suicide Junkie]

Malfador is/was just one guy; Aaron Hall.
Frankly, he is better at the game engine than the default datafiles. All serious mods are improvements in the mind of at least one person, and usually a majority of the forum-goers.

Aaron is a great guy with a great game, but his default settings are fairly weak... Which serves to encourage the community to build bigger and better things, and we have done so for over half a decade now. Please don't ignore our six years of development because of a preconcieved notion that Aaron made the best stock files possible.

Certainly, play the basic game first, but still, download some mods and the game will be fresh and new again. Find what works best for you.

PS:
Literally, Rock Paper Scissors

[Wade]

Rock, paper, scissors...Literally! Hah! I see that now. That's a good one. You'd really have to pay attention to "combined armed forces".

-Wade

[Fyron]

Wade said:
Like I said, I've always found reason behind the designers "plan" in many games.

Honestly, the reasons are primarily arbitrariness.

In the stock race creation there is already options (although simplified) for regular tech, organic tech, and mechanoids.

I think they are boring and shallow compared to fleshed out racial tech traits in Eclipse, STM, B5 Mod, Adamant, and others.

Homeworlds already start with a good infrustructure.

Stock HWs are just another planet that has had 30 turns of building put into it. Mods like Proportions are totally different.

"Least refined" is an opinion.

Most of the mods have had a lot more time put into their data files than the stock data files did. There are a lot of unpolished facets in the stock files; boring progressions, under-utilization of a lot of uses of damage types and abilities, rather unbalanged racial trait costs and weapons, etc. It is unfortunate that the stock data files have not changed in 5 years (other than the addition of drones from Gold).

But those are just my opinions and I'm just a newbie to you all.

Newbies are the best kind. This isn't some silly mainstream game forum where the opinions of people are weighed by post count or membership date.

[Strategia_In_Ultima]

Wade said:
Thankyou all for the information. I probably would appreciate some aspects of some of the mods. I just can't bring myself to commit to them . Like I said, I've always found reason behind the designers "plan" in many games. Aside from the AI some times. Later I may consider the TDM Modpack and more races such as AtrocitiesRaces.

Not to be rude but just to state my opinion in response to yours; I want to comment on some of the mods.

I'm not sure yet what a Quantum Reactor-type component is (Space-Time Engine?) but Malfador must have thought it had it's place.

Quantum Reactor-type comps are components (like the actual Quantum Reactor in stock) that give the ship infinite supplies, e.g. it never needs to refuel. In stock this component is much too easy to research and much too cheap to build (1k mins if memory serves), especially once you factor in the unbalancing effect this component has, as it eliminates the need for resupply depots, allows ships to keep moving endlessly, allows ships to spend an infinite amount of time under cloak etc. In the middle/late game, it's all too easy to spare just 20kT(!) so you can have a QR.

A nuclear weapon (and many other technologies)is a huge imbalance in real life if the other does not have it but thats how a technology race works.

I'm not sure what you mean by this, but I assume you thought the QR was a weapon..... Anyway, my comment on this is; yes, they are "imbalancing" but at least you have a reason not to use nuclear weapons. There is no reason not to use QRs, especially if everyone else (or even just one other person) uses them, as there is no "counter" (e.g. in the case of nukes, these would be anti-ballistic missiles, airborne lasers, SDI defence etc.) and no disadvantages to using them (i.e. no land is made uninhabitable for tens of thousands of years).

Nations are working on defenses to this. Is there a stock balancer tech to Quantum Reactor; or is it just be equivalent in technology? Many nations in real life did not like not having nuclear technology so they too researched it.(Yes, I know it's just a game.)

See above.

How effective fighters and missiles are in the far future is arguable.

Agreed, but this game isn't about realism; it's about strategy. And why wouldn't you use fighters in the far future? I mean, they're small, and you can deploy lots of them..... At the very least they can be annoying, withering away defences. At the very best..... well, just see Star Wars or Battlestar Galactica or somesuch. I'm not saying these are displays of what's likely for the future; I'm just saying that fighters and fighter-to-ship combat are widely-used elements in science fiction, and all those writers can't all be horribly wrong? (Damn, I'm ranting again..... I hope you get my point despite all the rubbish.)

The space available on these transports is arguable.

Oh, yeah..... which is precisely why two Capital Ship Missiles take up as much room as several million people.

In the stock race creation there is already options (although simplified) for regular tech, organic tech, and mechanoids.

These are more than simplified; these are only additions. Organic tech gives you organic armor, seeker parasites and so on. Mechanoids make you immune to plagues. Right. In Adamant, you are not just a race with Organic Manipulation tech, you are an organic race, using living, sentient starships, etc. (I kinda forgot the rest. Sorry Fyron.) Machines are currently under construction, but from what I've heard, they are quite different from the rest of the types (which are in turn quite different from the rest), unlike in stock.

Homeworlds already start with a good infrustructure.

Mines, farms, refineries and research centers lvl I is not what I'd call good, well-established, long-standing infrastructure, especially since you can build a far better infrastructure on a huge planet with a breathable atmosphere, and spend only a few years building the stuff. Proportions places Cultural Centers on your homeworld, which provide immense bonuses and cannot be built anywhere else - unless, that is, you want to spend more than two hundred years doing so, which is much more than it's worth once you've built the ruddy thing.

"Least refined" is an opinion.

Agreed, but opinions come dangerously close to facts if they're shared by the majority of people.

"Rock, paper, scissors" reminds me of Galactic Civilizations 2. An alright game but not the ultimate.

I didn't get this game for "fantasy". There are many other games for that. (Well I got it for science fiction "fantasy".)

Agreed, but this is an option; nobody is forcing you to download and play that mod, it's entirely up to you what you do.

But those are just my opinions and I'm just a newbie to you all.

That's all right, a little fresh blood every once in a while keeps us all young and fresh, and prevents us from becoming grumpy old SE freaks

But, again, I'm gonna play awhile and then consider AI improvement and more races.

-Wade

Like SJ said, the TDM Mod is the best choice for AI. As for more races, well, there are a lot of sites out there that host a total of hundreds (thousands?) of different shipsets, so you'll find at least a few to your liking.

**********

Oh, and I really suggest that you try your hand at modding. I was just now playing my first game of SE in some time, using stock 1.94, and I immediately had the urge to go and put in stuff I liked or edited or removed stuff I didn't like. I really think you should try modding (I would also suggest you download the SE4Modder, if you can find it - I'm using it and I much prefer it over plodding through text files using Metapad, especially where formations, strategies and tech (inter)dependencies are concerned)

[Renegade 13]

Strategia_In_Ultima said:
Like SJ said, the TDM Mod is the best choice for AI.
[snip]

Ahem...that was me, not SJ

Wade, I must say I agree with you for the most part. When I get the urge to play another game, I usually go for a stock game (with TDM AI's). I don't know why, but I like it. Then again, I have tried many mods that I enjoyed immensely. I guess it all comes down to a matter of preference. When I began playing SEIV about...oh probably 4 or 5 years ago now, I played for probably about 1.5 or 2 years without trying a single mod. The thing is I had great fun doing it.

The most important thing is to have fun with the game, as long as you're having a good time, that's all that matters. I know it took me quite a while to become a little tired of stock, and learn all the tricks to beat the stock AI. At that time, I started checking out mods since they can greatly enhance gameplay, alter balance, improve AI, etc. It was like a whole new game, and I wasn't easily beating the AI anymore, it took some effort.

In either case, a warm welcome to the forums, and though people can get a little excited about promoting their favorite mods, this is a great place to be!

[capnq]

Nobody expects you to try all the available mods. And just because a particular mod is popular doesn't imply you have to like it. There are a couple of mods that have already been mentioned in this thread, which I respect as technical accomplishments, but didn't particularly enjoy playing when I tried them. At least half the mods I currently have installed are there only because I needed to troubleshoot a game as an admin for Play-By-Web.