Abandon SE4?Opinions:Space Empires 5 screen shots?

[Roanon]

I have stopped playing SE4 some time ago, not enough time being one but not the sole reason. I will give SE5 a try, definitely. I still have doubts that I will start playing SE again with the new version, though. From the screenshots on the Malfador webside, eye candy seems to have the biggest part in the new design. Seems to be the new design style: take an old game, make it simpler and worse, add eye candy and fancy 3D graphics. A concept that fails every time I have seen it. I hope Aaron doesn't get too carried away with graphic design. A screen with 90% graphics and 10% boxed in a corner with a tiny part of the total data, forcing me to make my own spreadsheet in order to have a minimal overview over the game - I don't have time or fun to do this any more.

As also mentioned by others, real-time is an issue. It ticks me off every time I read it. If I want to play a game where the number of mouseclicks per second is the most important factor, I would go and play Unreal or whatever, not a so called real-time "strategy" game. It seems to be there is no forced realtime aspect in SE5, but I still fear - it's a crazy idea to introduce realtime in a strategy game in the first place, and with crazy designers you never know what happens...

MOO3, the biggest failure ever - I hope Aaron doesn't try to use parts of its design in order to prove there is a viable game behind it. Games where 90% of my efforts are directed to prevent the "helpful" stupid AI to ruin my empire are not my idea of fun. I don't mind management even if it means micromanagement. They way to reduce micromanagement is macromanagement and scripting, not artificial stupidity ruining the game if allowed to.

I do hope the testers do their job properly. Which is difficult if you hire dedictated fans to test your game. The proper testing is not seeing a new feature, getting all exited about how wonderful it is, and using it every way the designer intended to admire it even more - even if this is what I too whould probably do . A proper tester must have the will to BREAK every feature, trying not to use but to EXPLOIT every rule in ways never intended by the designer - this is the only way to find loopholes that may otherwise ruin the game when hitting a market full of merciless players after release. I would recommend a second beta phase with more testers, especially players being totally new to SE if possible.

All in all I have mixed feelings and it seems to be very unpredictable what will finally emerge. I hope the lack of informations about SE5 does not mean the designer expects disappointment and disapproval, and tries to hide to avoid the heat.

[dogscoff]

Where has this myth come from about se5 having realtime combat?

Everyone listen carefully:

SE5 DOES NOT HAVE REAL TIME COMBAT.
It will be turn-based combat, just like se4. Prettier, yes, but otherwise no different to se4. Definitely not realtime.

Are we clear on that? I mean it's been stated half a dozen times in this very thread already but the message doesn't seem to be sinking in. Should we get it added to the thread title?

The next person who breezes in here whining about non-existant realtime combat is gonna get a swift kick in the combat simulator.

[Kamog]

Um, Malfador's site lists "Detailed Real-Time Tactical Space Combat" under the features for SEV...

[Roanon]

dogscoff said:
SE5 DOES NOT HAVE REAL TIME COMBAT.

I'll fully believe it as soon as you convince Aaron to scratch it out of his official feature list of SE:V on malfador.com. Till then, I'm still in doubt.

[Captain Kwok]

*sigh*

Space Empires 5 does have tactical real-time combat.

However, there are lots of options available so that a player may execute the combat in any way they want. This includes automatic pausing, which allows for a fair simulation of the turn-based tactical combat in SE:IV with the exception that the ships execute their orders concurrently.

[Aiken]

I only care about freedom of modding in se5. AI scripts is an improvement which I'm waiting for.
The more you can change, the better game's potential.
And I've already abandoned se4, it has nothing to offer to gamer and modder already. It has no tools to change an inner game mechanics and different mods add only a little variety. It was a great time playin' se4, but something new shall appear.

[Captain Kwok]

There is twice as many data files in SE:V than SE:IV.

[Ed Kolis]

Would you be at liberty to name a few of the new ones, just as a teaser?

[Fyron]

SE5 combat is much better than SE4. It is fallacious to call it "real time combat" because of all the Starcraft/Command and Conquer baggage that label brings along. It is absolutely nothing like those games. I'd certainly not be testing the game still if the combat was anything like those games.

SE4 combat sucks, terribly. There is not even an inkling of a basic initiative system as in games like MOO2 (1.31 patch). Both sides just line up and shoot, one at a time, everything on one side, in some gross Napoleonic system of warfare. Sure you can play with maximum ranges and such, but those just drag forth the other glaring issues of a basic turn based system. There is actually very little strategy involved in the SE4 combat model (other than exploiting AI weaknesses in single player).

Especially in the stock game, SE4 combat tends to be winner take all (past the pointless early game battles of 3 ships against 3 ships), because the more powerful side can deal out tremendous damage before the enemy has a chance to fire back, each round. This is totally imbalancing and nonsensical. Some mods try to get around the horrid limitiations of the combat engine by overpowering defenses so that ships survive multiple rounds of fire, but this can only go so far. With a good initiative system, you can get situations where ships on each side move and fire at each other back and forth, avoiding the one side moves entirely crap that so weakens SE4. SE5 does exactly this, but smooths out the initiative system infinitely. It is not a matter of just trying to make the combat glitzy, it is a concerted effort to make it better, to make it balanced and sensical. Playing with it in tactical mode is certainly not a click-fest/button-mash like Starcraft/C&C type games.

The auto-pause feature is the real clincher... It turns the combat into a simultaneous execution system with perfect initiative. There is no silliness with ships moving in, firing, and moving out before the enemy can react as in a primitive model like SE4; it all happens in a better, more fluid environment. No more missile dancing! There have been games that seek to put into place complex initiative systems to approximate realistic action, where ships do part of their actions for a turn in phases. While this does generally make the combat engine more balanced and sensical, it does create horribly complex, anti-fun rulesets that get in the way of playing the game. A continuous time model achieves the same goal, though to an even greater degree, without the madness.

It is still a deep TBS game, just with a better engine for combat execution. The ships are just as complex as SE4; their interactions in combat are governed by similar horribly (beautifully?) complex rules. There is no RTS style oversimplification of unit stats into attack, defense and hitpoints, no horribly frantic pacing (though you could probably create it if you ramp up weapon damage...). I can't really go into detail due to the NDA, however.

"If I want to play a game where the number of mouseclicks per second"

Number of mouse clicks is not even a relevant complaint when you can pause the combat and issue whatever orders you like... Click-festing can only be an issue if you refuse to use the pause hotkey and the auto-pause feature.

And it is absolutely nothing like MOO3, in any regard. Why do you think Aaron Hall would be so inept as to follow in MOO3's footsteps?

Remember, "real time" does NOT mean click fest. It does NOT mean "like a RTS game." RTSes are only click fests because the game engine is made to be click festing. SE5 is not made to be click festing.

(I wonder how many more times I will need to make this argument... at least the 6th time in the last few years. )

=0=

Roanon said:
I do hope the testers do their job properly... I would recommend a second beta phase with more testers, especially players being totally new to SE if possible.

I'm fairly offended by this whole paragraph, as I imagine most of the other beta testers are as well. I don't know what rabid fanbois you think are running around merely gawking at new features, but I assure you there are none in the beta tester group.

[Roanon]

Imperator Fyron said:I'm fairly offended by this whole paragraph, as I imagine most of the other beta testers are as well. I don't know what rabid fanbois you think are running around merely gawking at new features, but I assure you there are none in the beta tester group.

I'm really sorry, I didn't want to offend you or anyone of the other testers, I apologize if you feel offended. I am sure you are doing the best that you can, I think I couldn't do better, knowing SE4 and the basic game structure too.

But I know from program testing, any one too deeply involved, having too much knowledge from a prior version, tends to test in a specific, often developer-influenced direction. Without wanting it, even without noticing it. Someone totally new to the game would have a totally different approach, trying things that might be ridiculous and senseless most of the time, but uncover hidden loopholes sometimes too.