Excessive mage nerfing in dom-III (?)

[WraithLord]

Putting together some various bits and pieces of information I'm starting to come up with a somewhat disturbing big picture.

What I know (based on AARs and discussions in this forum),
1. SCs are nerfed. Life drain only drains 5 first hp and only recover fatigue. Buffs are nerfed (they come with a vulnerability price tag). Morale is changed so that SCs can route if wounded.

2. Mages are nerfed. Range for many damage dealing spells is reduced. Favorite spells like quickness, relief and false horror (to name a few, probably there are more) are nerfed.

I assume that there are probably more changes towards those two directions. I'm starting to get worried about this:
First, I don't see why (or rather don't like the fact that) mages and spells got nerfed across the board in dom-III. Mages were already expensive enough in dom-II and their usefulness was severely limited by their frailty (in general, there exceptions of course). IMO nerfing mages them takes some of the fun from the game.

Second thing that for me is more disturbing yet more difficult to pinpoint, I am always wary when game developers start to take the nerf route to balance. As I see it, balance in complex environments such as strat. games can be achieved in two opposite ways, simplicity and complexity. Simplicity is making more factors and mechanisms work the same way (IMO, AOW-SM is a good example for a game that was heavily based on this approach). Complexity is achieving balance by making any given strat. useful in a very specific (not common) circumstance and counterable by a given set of counters. This can be achieved in games that are reach with features and mechanisms.

I think that dom-II has achieved pretty good balance in that approach. No given strat. was overpowering due to the complexity of the game and the existence of many counters. Even SCs that ppl have complained a lot about have many counters (stealth armies, Anti SCs, SC killing spells to name a few). I love dominions for being a complex and rich game in which balance is achieved not in obvious ways. I consider nerfing to be an easy way to achieve balance that, if used excessively, can take a lot of the fun out of dominions. I am worried that my favorite game will go that path.

[Nerfix]

Well, the severe Quickness nerf was rather extreme, but then again, Quickness + spell spamming was considered a pretty much must-have tactic.

I do have my concerns, namely Astral magic being even more deadlier, Water & Fire magic being even weaker and some nations suffering excessively from the spellcasting nerfs or not having sufficient ways of countering enemies due magic restriction, but I don't have the game so I can't judge...yet.

EDIT: But bottom line is, Dominions players have always managed to find ways to adapt to the game.

I vaguely remember the time when Caelum was considering weak in Dominions I, and then someone came and beat everyone with it. Black Forest Ulm was considered worthless in Dom II, then people started using VQ's. Spring and Autumn was considered a weak theme of a "hopeless" nation, and yet people had succes with it. False Horrors replaced the elemental spam of Dom I. Servants of Darkness came in place of teleporting a Sphinx on top of your enemy.

I'm sure the players will be smart enough to adapt to the new situation.

[ceremony]

WraithLord said:
Life drain only drains 5 first hp and only recover fatigue.

Why do you think this?

[WraithLord]

ceremony said:

Why do you think this?

Thanks for the correction. It appears that they do not recover fatigue. This makes the change even more nerfing than I thought.

[Kristoffer O]

WraithLord said:
Putting together some various bits and pieces of information I'm starting to come up with a somewhat disturbing big picture.

What I know (based on AARs and discussions in this forum),
1. SCs are nerfed. Life drain only drains 5 first hp and only recover fatigue. Buffs are nerfed (they come with a vulnerability price tag). Morale is changed so that SCs can route if wounded.

2. Mages are nerfed. Range for many damage dealing spells is reduced. Favorite spells like quickness, relief and false horror (to name a few, probably there are more) are nerfed.

I assume that there are probably more changes towards those two directions. I'm starting to get worried about this:
First, I don't see why (or rather don't like the fact that) mages and spells got nerfed across the board in dom-III. Mages were already expensive enough in dom-II and their usefulness was severely limited by their frailty (in general, there exceptions of course). IMO nerfing mages them takes some of the fun from the game.

Second thing that for me is more disturbing yet more difficult to pinpoint, I am always wary when game developers start to take the nerf route to balance. As I see it, balance in complex environments such as strat. games can be achieved in two opposite ways, simplicity and complexity. Simplicity is making more factors and mechanisms work the same way (IMO, AOW-SM is a good example for a game that was heavily based on this approach). Complexity is achieving balance by making any given strat. useful in a very specific (not common) circumstance and counterable by a given set of counters. This can be achieved in games that are reach with features and mechanisms.

I think that dom-II has achieved pretty good balance in that approach. No given strat. was overpowering due to the complexity of the game and the existence of many counters. Even SCs that ppl have complained a lot about have many counters (stealth armies, Anti SCs, SC killing spells to name a few). I love dominions for being a complex and rich game in which balance is achieved not in obvious ways. I consider nerfing to be an easy way to achieve balance that, if used excessively, can take a lot of the fun out of dominions. I am worried that my favorite game will go that path.

Hi, I don't think you need to worry too much. Worries are only good for getting stomach pains.

Part of this this might sound stupid, so don't take it too seriously
1) SC's are not nerfed. Several mechanics that were unbalanced have been reworked. This has affected SC's (this was the part that sounds stupid).

Lifedraining weapons is the one thing that more or less directly was targeted against SC's. The lifedrain nerf was introduced to add flexibility. Now there is a reason to use other weapons. Lifedrain is still useful and fun, but not the only way to build an SC.

The morale system is remade to be more transparent. The mechanics are described in detail in the manual and should be a lot more comprehensible than before. The reworked morale affects single commanders, but I think that is OK. Even though I like the concept of a dragon conquering a province by itself, I dislike the fact thet a single scout could. Now the scout is an unlikely conqueror, but the dragon still might conquer said province.

2) Mages in general are not nerfed. Several spells are. Other spells are boosted. You do not need to worry about them either. You'll be less likely to cast False Horror in every battle, but more likely to cast Air Elemental. Give and take. Both are hopefully useful in many circumstances.

Independent mages are nerfed and more importantly national mages have been defined. Randoms are no longer fully random. This makes national mages slightly more powerful in their national magic, but keeps the distinction between nations longer in the games.


There are probably more changes towards these directions, as well as changes against these directions. I hope you will find the game enjoyable.


Your second fear:
Dom2 was never balanced. Dom3 will not be either, but we have tried to look at some balance problems of dom2 to make dom3 not suffer from lack of possible strategies. It took players quite long time to find the winning strategies in dom2, but they were found. Hopefully it will takle even longer to find them in dom3, and I hope there are more possible options and strategies in dom3.

[Kristoffer O]

WraithLord said:

Thanks for the correction. It appears that they do not recover fatigue. This makes the change even more nerfing than I thought.

Who said? It does still drain fatigue.

[ceremony]

WraithLord said:

Thanks for the correction. It appears that they do not recover fatigue. This makes the change even more nerfing than I thought.

That was not was I was getting at. It still drains both. I was wondering why you thought it only drained fatigue, rather than fatigue and hp.

[Arralen]

There are other ways to recover fatigue. Some new items, e.g..

And you may rest assured that neither mages nor spells have been nerfed into oblivion with Dom3. With 3 different ages, with the early one having a higher default site setting and more, cheaper and more versatile mages, and the latest with more restricted pathes, there has been even more complexity introduced into Dom3.

And don't forget about the new spells, mostly nation-specific ones.

Lifedraining weapons, quickness-driven skelspamming and other things got nerfed because they were really unbalanced no-brainers in Dom2. Note: they are still available, but weaker in Dom3. There might be other possibilities now which are as good in certain situations - which haven't been there in Dom2.

[WraithLord]

Nerfix said:
Well, the severe Quickness nerf was rather extreme, but then again, Quickness + spell spamming was considered a pretty much must-have tactic.

I do have my concerns, namely Astral magic being even more deadlier, Water & Fire magic being even weaker and some nations suffering excessively from the spellcasting nerfs or not having sufficient ways of countering enemies due magic restriction, but I don't have the game so I can't judge...yet.

EDIT: But bottom line is, Dominions players have always managed to find ways to adapt to the game.

I vaguely remember the time when Caelum was considering weak in Dominions I, and then someone came and beat everyone with it. Black Forest Ulm was considered worthless in Dom II, then people started using VQ's. Spring and Autumn was considered a weak theme of a "hopeless" nation, and yet people had succes with it. False Horrors replaced the elemental spam of Dom I. Servants of Darkness came in place of teleporting a Sphinx on top of your enemy.

I'm sure the players will be smart enough to adapt to the new situation.

I agree about this, but it isn't my concern. My concern is about specific changes that I dislike (like quickness) and more generally that the nerf "sword" may have been applied too freely and severely in the name of balance.

[WraithLord]

About life drain change I have read some comments on the proposed change but never was certain about the exact details (the last comment I've read is in this forum at, http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/thr...5&o=2&fpart=1)

@Kristoffer, Thanks for your response, I find it reassuring.

And seriously, there's no way I'm not going to enjoy dom-III anyway