OT: A Nuclear North Korea

[Ludd]

My apologies for the lack of logic, poor English skills, ill-constructed "sound bite" and so-on. I do the best I can.

To be honest,further discussion in the face of such hostility seems pointless.

[Atrocities]

Hey no problem Ludd. You should read some of the crap I have typed. It was a very good article you posted, it does help to broaden the perspective of the dicusssion to have other POV introduced. JOb well done.

[Barnacle Bill]

Lordy I hate to weigh in on an OT topic, but 3/4 of a bottle of good Spanish wine made me do it....

Iraq: Gulf War I (1991, Bush 41's war) wasn't finished. Rule#1 absolutely has to be that shooting war between dictator & USA = dictator goes down. Went for Santa Anna, went for the Kaiser, went for Der Fuhrer, went for Togo, that it didn't go for Kim's pappy & Uncle Ho was an abomination. Didn't stop at the Rhine in '45, so shouldn't have stopped at the Euphrates in '91. Therefore, correcting that error would have been self-justified in '92, '93, '94, '95, '96, '97, '98, '99, '00, '01, or '02. We finally did it in '03 - what took so long? Everything after that falls under Powell's "you break it, you bought it" doctrine, but IMO there wasn't any choice but to break it (it being Saddam).

Tony Blair: The guy's a big-time lefty. Bush 41 sent political operatives to (unsuccessfully) help his opposition keep him out of power. The bulk of his own party loaths his foriegn policy alignment with the eeeevil Bushchimphitler, and he has to rely on the Tories to keep the wheels on re Iraq. Yet, he sticks his head in the meat grinder anyway. Why? Well, the guy clearly ain't STUPID, so clearly the only answer is that he really believes in the mission and has the STRENGTH OF CHARACTOR to put right before politically expediency. Plus, he's really good at speachifying. So, despite the fact that I agree with next to nothing he's done in "domestic policy", I love the guy.

What the Euros think of the US: Not a matter of great concern to me. I love Europe - love the wine, love the food, love the art, love the history, "some of my best friends are European" (including my wife, BTW), and remain majorly impressed with the French contribution to US independence (I have pics of the placs at Yorktown, and scoffed at the C.2003 "boycott"). However, their opinion on US foriegn policy carries about as much weight with me as the opinion of the waiter on the subject of my retirement investments.

North Korea: We won't do anything. The problem for SK is that Seoul is within artillery range of NK, NK has wads of heavy arty stationed in range to pound Seoul to rubble, and most of the SK economy is concentrated in the Seoul metropolitan area. Hence, Kim has SK by the short hairs even w/o nukes. If we did do something, though - look, NK is a 3rd World basket case armed with Soviet export model ("monkey model" as the Soviets themselves called it) equipment or Chinese/local clones thereof, and organized/trained per the demonstrated-ineffective Soviet "military science". Any modern Western force would go through them like... Schwarzkopf through the Iraqis. However, it ain't gonna happen. So, Kim will build his "Dongs" and we'll all jaw about it, and maybe the Japanese will go nuclear too, but someday the wheels will come off and Kim ends up like Ceausescu - unless he does someting totally stupid like launch a missile AT Japan/SK/US - in which case the Schwarzkopf thing probably happens and if he's lucky Kim ends up in is silly show trial like Saddam.

[dogscoff]

Tony Blair: The guy's a big-time lefty.

Lol! You americans wouldn't know a lefty if it jumped up and nationalised your public services! To you guys a 'lefty' is someone who suggests that just maybe, sometimes, in some extreme theoretical circumstances, it might be reasonable to suggest that perhaps government money might legitimately be used to assist sick people who can't afford to see a doctor. Anyone further left than that is a rabid communist and should be shot.

Our traditional political spectrum has your 'lefties' beyond our mainstream right wing and our 'lefties' as proper socialists: Renationalise the trains, the hospitals, all that. The posh toffs of the tory party were the right wing (yah, boo, hiss) and working class trade unionists of Labour were on the left. The intellectual liberals were piggy in the middle (and they never got to catch the ball).

Over the last 10 years Blair has pulled his so called 'labour' party further right than the tories! Our leftmost party now (disregarding the minority fringie parties) is the liberal party, which *used* to be the dead centre ground. There is no longer a true, large scale socialist party in this country, which leaves a powerful vacuum waiting to be filled.

On the other hand, Blair has dragged our entire political stage so far right (based on some US model, as far as I can see) that now people are starting to wonder if the right wing UKIP party (or, as I like to call them, the "I'm not racist BUT..." party) are the 'true' voice of modern Britain. Even the BNP (the 'let's beat up all the black people and deport them to Africa' party) are winning votes.

Me? I've given up on the lot of them. I don't believe in policy any more, since politicians state their policies before the elections, then promptly do the exact opposite of what they promised, grab all the cash out of the public purse and blow it on whores, wars and big expensive cars. I might just about vote liberal next time, since they haven't been in power yet so I feel they ought to be given a chance to (dis)prove themselves before I give up on democracy altogether, stop voting, stop paying taxes and turn anarchist.

We all talk so smugly about our "democracies" in threads like these but when was the last time *your* duly elected representative actually served the will of the people rather than their own interests? Democracy is a scam.

[Barnacle Bill]

dogscoff said:
Lol! You americans wouldn't know a lefty if it jumped up and nationalised your public services! <snip>

I fully understand that the political spectrum in the US is rather to the right of Europe. However, my understand of the one in the UK is that relative to each other the Tories are like the GOP, New Labour is like DLC democrats (Bill Clinton, etc...) and "old Labour" & the Liberal party are like the left wing of our Democratic party & our Green party. That's relative to each other. On an absolute scale, and in reference to domestic policy only, I'd compare the Tories to the DLC Democrats, New Labour to the left wing of the Democrats and "old Labour" & the Liberal party would be someplace off to the left of the US maintream.

[Renegade 13]

dogscoff said:

Lol! You americans wouldn't know a lefty if it jumped up and nationalised your public services! To you guys a 'lefty' is someone who suggests that just maybe, sometimes, in some extreme theoretical circumstances, it might be reasonable to suggest that perhaps government money might legitimately be used to assist sick people who can't afford to see a doctor. Anyone further left than that is a rabid communist and should be shot.

In that case, I guess we (Canadians) must be slobbering, filthy commies After all, we have that most evil of evils, universal public health care I'm damn happy we do too, or else my appendectomy would have cost a ****load of money, and my grandpa's knee replacement (2nd, actually, after the first was botched...) wouldn't have been affordable, and hence he'd be in a wheelchair. But I digress.

I wonder how Canada's democratic system corresponds to that of the US and Britain. Let's see...

Our New Democratic Party would probably correspond to whoever is leftist in Britain and the US, and I'm damn glad they haven't been in power for decades. Scary bunch they are.

The Liberals would (probably) correspond to whoever is "middle of the line" in the US and Britain, though they got somewhat humbled in the last election.

The Conservatives aren't really right wing, they're closer to the center, though further right than the other two major parties.

Forget about the Bloc, only the Quebecois vote for them

[RonGianti]

Ludd said:
My apologies for the lack of logic, poor English skills, ill-constructed "sound bite" and so-on. I do the best I can.

To be honest,further discussion in the face of such hostility seems pointless.

That was an excellent article, thanks for the link.

I would not call it hostility. There are a lot of complex issues at stake and heated emotions. I, for one, appreciated it when someone calls me on my own lack of logic or a poorly thought out position. This may be OT for this forum, but its completely ON Topic for each and every one of us! Don't give up. Its a lot more important than whether or not SEV Standard is balanced

[Possum]

Ludd said:
My apologies for the lack of logic, poor English skills, ill-constructed "sound bite" and so-on. I do the best I can.

To be honest,further discussion in the face of such hostility seems pointless.

Oh, please.

First, no need to apologise.

Second, if I'd known english wasn't your native tongue, I'd have been quite a bit less harsh. *I* will apologise for that.

Third, I did not attack you personally. I attacked your statement. As my catholic friends say, "Love the sinner, hate the sin."

There is no hostility toward you here. I did express scorn for what you appeared to be saying. But that's not the same thing.

30 years ago, at the age of 17, I lived and worked in the city of London. Over and over, I had this exchange with brits and other europeans -

Them: "So, are you Canadian?"
Me: "Ah, no, actually, I'm American."
Them: "F***ing Americans"

Now that, my friend, is hostility. Unearned, unwarranted, unjustified hostility.

Oh, there were reasons then, just as there are reasons now.

Then it was the aftermath of the war in southeast asia, during which we Americans were regularly vilified and excoriated in the european press.

Today, it's Iraq, and we are being regularly vilified and excoriated in the european press...

As Howard Cosell said, "It's like deja vu all over again!"

I enjoy the company of european people. I enjoy their foods and wines. I respect their sometimes superior and always different ways of doing things.

But as for their political opinions, well, yeah, pardon me while I try to look like someone who gives a damn

[Renegade 13]

Possum said:
Them: "So, are you Canadian?"
Me: "Ah, no, actually, I'm American."
Them: "F***ing Americans"

Well...it's good to know they like Canadians

[Barnacle Bill]

Renegade 13 said:
Well...it's good to know they like Canadians

I think it's more a matter of nobody feeling threatened by the Canadians. You know, we got Rambo & John Wayne & Clint Eastwood, whereas you got Dudley Do-Right and the McKenzie Brothers