Yomi - Oni Kings analysis. Developers please read

[Nerfix]

PDF said:
Maverni has great mages, but the only worthwhile troops are Eponi Knights and Carnute Nobles (the ones that get berserk).
The sacred warriors aren't worth a bless strategy and are awfully expensve (35 gp!!) for their stats.

At start you can't expand without significant losses before you can use Protection and BE. Then problem is that before you reach magic level 4 in several path you are clearly outclassed by nearly any other EA nations, particularly the non-human ones with big nasty troops such as Yomi, Agartha, Abysia or Niefelheim.

Compare costs and stats of a Boar Warrior vs a Agarthan Seal Guard : a SG costs roughly 2 BW (gold and res), it's laughable.

And you don't even get cool national summons !

Edit : and no sneaky troops neither !

Why are you even trying a bless strategy othern than E4 with Marverni? Not all nations can do well for it, and other nations have better choices for it.

The Carnute Nobles have far suckier stats than their Ambitate colleagues and their only saving grace is the Berzerk that fires only every now and then.

Perhaps your problems with significant losses have come from using inferior units (Carnutes) while far better choices are around (Ambitates)?

Yomi and Agartha are vulnerable to missiles (You get javelins, which are good, especially against Agartha), Agartha and Niefelheim are vulnerable to being ganged on. Admitedly Yomi can bring archers and some of the Niefels get the frost aura but there are no foolproof plans.

Another noteworthy thing is that Yomi and especially Niefelheim and Agartha have worse research capability than Marverni. This can be further boosted by taking Magic scale, and since you can't pull a good bless strat with Marverni, why bother putting too much magic for your pretender?

[DominionsFan]

Nerfix said:
Another noteworthy thing is that Yomi and especially Niefelheim and Agartha have worse research capability than Marverni. This can be further boosted by taking Magic scale, and since you can't pull a good bless strat with Marverni, why bother putting too much magic for your pretender?

Eh yeah Niefel's biggest problem is the research [especially if you would like to get blood slaves], but nothing can be perfect.

[PDF]

Well, I don't agree to most of the "buff Yomi demons" wishlist...
A nation should not have all units made equally worthwhile, it should have strong, good units, and worse ones.
Yomi has great big units, it does not seem unlogical that their "small" units be subpar. Personnally I've got Yomi as enemies in 2 pbem games, with me playing Kaisala in one game and Marveni in the second, each time they blew me up !
Granted it was true because I didn't develop effective Banishment strategies soon enough, but Yomi does not seem hopeless at all...
OTOH if there is a nation that really should be strengthened, it's Maverni, not Yomi ...

[Boron]

PDF said:
OTOH if there is a nation that really should be strengthened, it's Maverni, not Yomi ...

What is wrong with maverni?

Imho maverni is balanced, they have very good mages with the druid, good researchers with the gutuater, a potential communion mage with the stargazer.
The canute and ambibate noble warriors are awesome, eponi knights are rather useful too.
In short, imho they are a well balanced and fun to play early era nation .

[Nerfix]

Marverni is brutal with Communion + Summon Earthpower + Bladewind. Later on they get Gifts from Heavens. And if your enemy is sending those DIEEEEEEE!!!!-Onis or other big monsters, why don't you just send some Stargazers with Astral pearls to meet them and spam Horror Mark? Thaum 1 is one of my first goals as Marverni to get a communion chugging.

Their units are also very solid.

[PDF]

Nerfix,
In the game I'm referring to, I was already weakened by a "meeting engagement" against Onis I wasn't preparred to, and in the big battle vs Agartha my opponent had *large* numbers of SG with E9 bless, with a Troglodites front rank, vs my army of mainly Eponis and Carnutes, which were (for some..) Ethereal and Protected. All this was totally ineffective due to their large strength and magic glaive...
Maybe also the Knight size was a drawback as I couldn't field enough units vs each Agarthan.
And without effective combat spells my mages didn't do much neither, and their small Elementals didn't dent the opposition.

Thanks for the tips anyway, I'll try another time

[Nerfix]

Well, that was bad luck. And admitedly E9 can be nasty on the SG's, though something like W9 would be worse since it would nullify their weak Def and give them and extra attack.

Seriously, against Agartans the high Def of the Ambitates really shows. You do need to have an amount advantage vs the Seal Guards though, I admit it, but I think that Ambitate Nobles are far easier to mass than Seal Guards.

Troglos are hard to deal with, but I'd use Javelineers in large numbers for them....if they are pelted with missiles and then dig too deep into block of infantry they'll get ganged and die. Remember that a troglo costs 50 gold and a javelineer costs 10. You can get 50 javelineers for the price of 10 troglogs. Troglos are great, but they need to be used in a "critical mass" so to say or they will get beaten. Javelineers are suprisingly good against the soft Agartans...

Troglo Lords and Ancient Lords are worse, but then again you have great acces to Horror Mark and Curse and a bit later on Paralyze. If you hit Evoc 5 and Alt 1 you could use a N1 Druid with either EP, 3 Earth or Communion backing for more precise Gifts from Heavens strikes.

In time of serious troubles I could even consider using Cave Drakes to suck in blows...

My typical research pattern goes Thaum 1 - Evoc 5 - Alt 1 - Conj 3 for:
- Horror Mark, Communion, Curse
- Bladewind, Gifts from Heaven
- Eagle Eyes
- Summon Earthpower

If I was in imminent threat of big creatures I could aim for Paralyze first.

That's what I'd do. Your Mileage May Vary as usual. And it might be that Marverni has harder time vs Yomi or such, just like in later era there are such pair. Imagine Marignon vs Abysia...!

[B0rsuk]

Using Carnutes against Agarthans sounds like trying to beat Agarthans at their own game. Of course high strength helps to punch through armor, and with berserk on it could be even worse, because in this particular case (C. Nobles) it substracts 2 from defence. You're basically trying to say 'Carnute Nobles are bigger, stronger and tougher than Agarthans'
I'd rather try Ambibate Nobles who have +6 defence compared to berserked Carnute Nobles, and a bit more attack, too.

B0rsuk, who never played full version of Dominions 3.

[curtadams]

I'd don't like "protecting" Oni demons by having them run away on their first death. First, if the causative priests aren't dead, the demons will just get blasted on the next enounter. Second, until high-morale summons dominate the game - which should be fairly late in Dom3 - battles are mostly decided by who breaks first. If only some break, it's just harder on the troops remaining.

[Archonsod]

I've never had a problem with the Oni Kings. Usually, keeping a mass of Dai Oni together throwing fireballs & poison at approaching troops keeps them out of combat (the enemy tend to retreat before they reach the demons).
Priests could be problematic, but again you can mix in non demonic troops (such as a bunch of bandits scripted to fire at the rear, hopefully killing the priest quite quickly).
One possibility would be to use stealth armies of bandits scripted to loose off a few volleys towards the enemies' rear and retreat. You could then ambush priest heavy armies and try to remove the priests, before delivering the killing blow with the demons.