OT: Insightful (re: Amish shooting)

[dmm]

Phoenix-D said: Hitler was..nominally Christian.

Nominally means "in name only." So I totally agree.

Phoenix-D said: When people start insinuating that I have no morals, ...I get just a little annoyed.

I assume that I am one of those people who has you annoyed, probably because you are an atheist. Let me just say that I know some atheists who are more moral than some others I know who claim to be Christians. However, although of course I commend the former and am disgusted by the latter, I would contend that both are thinking and behaving illogically, given their postulates. My point was not that all atheists are immoral, but rather that the logical consequence of atheism is amoralism -- the lack of any morality, good or bad.

Phoenix-D said: dmm: Some of the largest mass murders in recent years have been conducted by religious people, so I really don't see how that flies.

That is a good point; being religious in the wrong way can cause people to do despicable things. (Examples: Jim Jones and the Guyana mass suicide; the 9/11/01 murderers; the Oklahoma City murderers (Timothy McVeigh); pogroms by Christians against Jews.) But how do we judge these actions to be despicable? Another way to put the question is: are these actions TRULY despicable, or is that simply our opinion?

To go back to the original thread topic: Is violence against women WRONG (no excuses allowed)? Is objectification of women WRONG (even if the woman encourages it)? Is sexualization of children WRONG (even if the sexualizer is "made that way")? Is sexual harassment WRONG (even if all the guys at the stadium are participating, and the woman seems flattered as well as flustered)? For the record, there ARE correct answers, and they are yes, yes, yes, and yes. But when people are told, "There is no absolute morality," we should not be surprised when their answers come back wrong.

[Phoenix-D]

Who gets to decide what's WRONG?

You'd say "God." Problem- so did everyone you cited as being religious in the wrong way. So do the people that stone women to death for being raped. Etc.

Since God isn't in the habit of popping in and saying "hey, you're [censored] up", what you have one way or the other is the word of men. No more, no less.

You can get morality from that, in a roundabout and extremely complicated fashion.

I'm not actually an atheist, but I'm an agnostic, so most of the people that annoy me in that manner just lump me in.

[dmm]

Phoenix-D said:
Since God isn't in the habit of popping in and saying "hey, you're [censored] up", what you have one way or the other is the word of men. No more, no less.

At the risk of sermonizing even more than I have already, I would contend that God has in fact done just that, for the very reason that you give, and that the Bible contains a reliable record of it.

Phoenix-D said:
I'm not actually an atheist, but I'm an agnostic, so most of the people that annoy me in that manner just lump me in.

Well, I was trying to give you credit for making up your mind.