OT: Insightful (re: Amish shooting)

[Mephisto]

Renegade 13 said:
If society and the justice system showed that there would be no tolerance for crap like that, and the punishment actually befitted the crime, crime wouldn't appear to be such an attractive thing.

Unfortunately every statistic says that this is not the case. And we can easily see this in some Islamic countries as well where the Sharia rules. If you rape a women you will get killed, if you are a thief you will lose a hand. But crime is still rampant in many of these countries.
A deterrent only works if you think rational about a matter, weighting loss and gain. But many crimes are committed in a state where rational thinking is no longer present. And you have to get caught in the first place to have a deterrent work.
Actually, if the risk of getting caught is high even "low" deterrents work very well. Statistics show that blue collar crimes dropped significantly when more pressure was put into detecting such crimes and bring them to court and public. The shame to stand in court and lose your career did have quite an effect.
So, our aim should be to detect and bring to court crimes with a high probability. And this is something that would help many violated women as well. How many women are beaten because the man can do it without fear that it might see the light of public. But how many will beat a women if it is a) brought to public and b) considered a crime by the public and neighbors (if the public doesn't care, then your are completely on your own ).

[Renegade 13]

Mephisto, I get the impression you might be a defense lawyer

Dmm, I would argue that some of what is in the Bible would be considered to be highly amoral today. The taking of slaves? The castrating of captured men/boys? That kind of argues against human morality being passed down from God, who would most likely have a higher sense of morality than what the Bible contains.

(Note, I'm using the Bible as an example only, since Christianity is the only religion I have any knowledge of, and shouldn't be construed as an attack.)

[rdouglass]

Morality is a purely human concept.

God is sovereign so morality is not relevant.

I know it sounds lame but God doesn't have to explain anything to us humans. There are stories in the Bible where God instructs a leader to kill *all* traces of another people or village. If the leaders did not follow his command, He punished those leaders as well for not following His will.

That would not be moral by any human standard. But that's the point; God is not human but He is sovereign. Putting morality and God together just doesn't work in any explination that would satisfy any logical human. So don't bother trying; it's a stupid arguement. God doesn't have to explain *anything* to us yet we will have to explain *everything* to Him.

We *will* have to explain to Him our reasonings and our belief (or lack of) that we post here on this forum whether you choose to believe that now or not. I know what I want to be able to say....

[narf poit chez BOOM]

rdouglass said:
Morality is a purely human concept.

God is sovereign so morality is not relevant.

I know it sounds lame but God doesn't have to explain anything to us humans. There are stories in the Bible where God instructs a leader to kill *all* traces of another people or village. If the leaders did not follow his command, He punished those leaders as well for not following His will.

That would not be moral by any human standard. But that's the point; God is not human but He is sovereign. Putting morality and God together just doesn't work in any explination that would satisfy any logical human. So don't bother trying; it's a stupid arguement. God doesn't have to explain *anything* to us yet we will have to explain *everything* to Him.

We *will* have to explain to Him our reasonings and our belief (or lack of) that we post here on this forum whether you choose to believe that now or not. I know what I want to be able to say....

The only one I remember is the Isrealite invasion of the promised land - And that was explained as due to wickedness.

I don't know about you, but I can easily envision a society so corrupt the only alternative is destruction.

Anyway, this thread was originally about violence against women. Let's shift back, shall we?

[Slynky]

Thank you, AMF, for posting this. I might suggest the subject title should be, "Inciteful" instead...as any decent man should rail againt [censored] like this!

[Renegade 13]

rdouglass said:
Morality is a purely human concept.

God is sovereign so morality is not relevant.

I know it sounds lame but God doesn't have to explain anything to us humans. There are stories in the Bible where God instructs a leader to kill *all* traces of another people or village. If the leaders did not follow his command, He punished those leaders as well for not following His will.

That would not be moral by any human standard. But that's the point; God is not human but He is sovereign. Putting morality and God together just doesn't work in any explination that would satisfy any logical human. So don't bother trying; it's a stupid arguement. God doesn't have to explain *anything* to us yet we will have to explain *everything* to Him.

We *will* have to explain to Him our reasonings and our belief (or lack of) that we post here on this forum whether you choose to believe that now or not. I know what I want to be able to say....

I'll just say that I disagree with you on all counts, and leave it there. I don't want to start religious flaming, and know there can be no reasoning with people who think like you obviously do.

[narf poit chez BOOM]

On-topic, please. We've barely touched the original topic.

[Elsemeravin]

narf poit chez BOOM said:
On-topic, please. We've barely touched the original topic.

Let's go back to the original discussion, for the origine ofthe universe most important topic.... CHEESE !

[Xrati]

Can we say that the original topic of the “de-humanization” and violence against women exists because of our inability to focus on the subject and we continue to deviate from the Topic? Maybe our attention span is so short these days that we actually lose track of where we are going!
We live in such a fast paced society that just maybe we need to pay more attention to the topics rather then move on to other subjects like religion. Violence against women is a serious subject and maybe if we just focused our attention on it we could actually do something about it.

[Mephisto]

Renegade 13 said:
Mephisto, I get the impression you might be a defense lawyer

Actually ... no. I'm *supposed* doing IT contractual law but in effect do everything the firm is throwing at me.
But the the university courses about criminal laws and the source and nature of crime weren't wasted.