Standard special ability, totally pointless?

[thejeff]

They do. But they're still just slightly better heavy cavalry. If you try to use them as thugs, they die quickly. A little slower if you give them good equipment, but then that's a big investment on a fragile unit.

The recuperation doesn't help much, since they're just as likely to die outright as to get an affliction.

If you don't use them as thugs, there's no advantage over other commanders since they're just moving troops around.

A boosted Smith or Black Priest would be just as thematic, and much more useful

[FrankTrollman]

One of them even comes with leather armor, which means that unless you make her some blacksteel pate she isn't even heavy infantry. Ulm Heroes should be in character for Ulm. They should start their life with real Blacksteel equipment and real blacksteel weaponry (such as a Star of Heroes, not a "morningstar"). That would be in character. A hero that has really nice forged equipment.

As is, they are just on the upper end of normal human stats. They don't even win a one on one against recruitables from groups that are specifically superhuman such as Iron Woods or Man.

There are some heroes that really open new vistas - such as Angerboda or the Seer King. But the guys who are just a normal warrior with stat bonuses equivalent to a star or two - that's just lame.

Or to put it another way: Special Character Magicians get the equivalent of dozens of gems worth of empowerment, it is not unreasonable for special character warriors to come out of the box with a handful of gems worth of equipment.

-Frank

[thejeff]

The base of the problem is that the game doesn't really support really good "human" warrior types.

Essentially because even with buffs and the best equipment you need enough hit points to survive a few lucky hits.
Given that some of the heroic abilities can give serious hp boosts, why not a hero with 2 or 3 times normal hps?

[Endoperez]

FrankTrollman said:
One of them even comes with leather armor, which means that unless you make her some blacksteel pate she isn't even heavy infantry. Ulm Heroes should be in character for Ulm. They should start their life with real Blacksteel equipment and real blacksteel weaponry (such as a Star of Heroes, not a "morningstar"). That would be in character. A hero that has really nice forged equipment.

As is, they are just on the upper end of normal human stats. They don't even win a one on one against recruitables from groups that are specifically superhuman such as Iron Woods or Man.

There are some heroes that really open new vistas - such as Angerboda or the Seer King. But the guys who are just a normal warrior with stat bonuses equivalent to a star or two - that's just lame.

Or to put it another way: Special Character Magicians get the equivalent of dozens of gems worth of empowerment, it is not unreasonable for special character warriors to come out of the box with a handful of gems worth of equipment.

-Frank

Except, of course, that it's not possible to make heroes appear with actual items. And items (other than weapons) are almost impossible to emulate properly on a unit.

The Heroine with Leather Armor has lower encumberance than the other knights, and AP 30 (although that can be a liability as well). Black Plate armor doesn't cost that much, not for Ulm.


Barhulf:
HP 19, str 15, att 14, def 13, mag res 10, enc 5. Armor for 21/20 prot. Def change -1. Giving him a magical weapon boosts him a lot, because he starts with a Morningstar (-2 def).

Raterik:
HP 17, str 15, att 13, def 14, mag res 13, enc 5, same equipment.

Hildegard:
HP 14, str 12, att 15, def 15, enc 4, mag res 13, essentially no armor/helm and just spear/shield. Def change +6, to 21.


In comparison, Demon Knights have HP 20, str 15, att/def 13, mag res 15, enc 1. Prot 22/24, def change of +4 from equipment. Demon Knights have a Broad Sword, Lance, Hoof instead of (weapon), hoof. Demon Knights have other abilities too, but he's here just for the comparison of stats.


Spornsjarl the Wolf Lord is actually useless. He has only Stealth 0 and Standard 10. Because stealth is dependent on the stealth value of the leader and the size of the army (pg 67), his forces are just as easy to catch as every other Vaetti Lord's. If he had, say, Stealth 40, he could lead an army of 40 units and still have as small chance of being caught as a single Scout.

[Gandalf Parker]

I think the heroes fit fine. They arent super-heroes or super combatants. They are commanders with a story and history which show up for free.

If they are misbalanced, that might be a different subject. Of course the balance of the heroes would have to take into account the balance of the nations also.

[Cainehill]

Not to mention that you can get Spornsjarl as a "hero" playing a variant of Jotunheim that doesn't _get_ any stealthy units. (Or at least this was true in Dom2.)

And - heroes should be _heroic_. The default ones aren't - some of them you'd rather get a bit of gold instead of the hero, _especially_ since the heroes cost upkeep. If they aren't heroic, why bother having them?

Thank the Great Pumpkin that Turin seems to be working on a Heroic Commanders again.

[FrankTrollman]

Except, of course, that it's not possible to make heroes appear with actual items.

But Blacksteel Plate, Blacksteel Kite Shields, Blacksteel Helmets, and Blacksteel Full Plate are all just armor types that you can start units with.

Frost Brands and the like are all just weapon types. Characters can start with those too.

Sure, it's not the actual magic item, but as long as the item in question doesn't do anything except provide a weapon or armor type, it mods in just fine. Flambeaus don't mod properly, but a Star of Heroes or a Blacksteel Helmet totally does.

-Frank

[Endoperez]

Cainehill said:
And - heroes should be _heroic_.

Thank the Great Pumpkin that Turin seems to be working on a Heroic Commanders again.

Whether heroes should be better than other commanders of the nation or not is a matter of taste. I don't think it's that important. There are some things I'd like to add to national heroes, but they are additional mechanics, not changes to their stats.

I like the Heroic Commanders mod. I just wouldn't like seeing few humans achieve something that's disturbingly superhuman in a game where all humans ARE just humans. Double hp compared to a normal humans is A LOT already. It probably isn't enough, but that's a different beast altogether. Same with att/def in the 13 to 15 range. It's already very good for mere humans, but the existence of immensely superior beings play it down quite a lot. Bane Lords have att 14, def 13. The Ulmish heroes are THAT GOOD already. Hildegard actually has better stats then the angelic Seraph, and is equal to uniques like Water Queens in skill!

[thejeff]

The Seraph has <14hp? Do people use it as a thug/SC or as mage?

The skills of the heroes are generally fine. It's the lack of hp that makes them poor thugs.

I have the same problem with superhuman humans, but heroic abilities already allow that. Why can't heroes come with the equivalent?

What about an item that adds 10-20hp? Wouldn't unbalance existing SCs much, but would make human thugs much more survivable.

[Endoperez]

thejeff said:
The Seraph has <14hp? Do people use it as a thug/SC or as mage?

There are Seraphs, and then there are Seraphs. I'm talking of the latter. Screenie!

(Scroll down to the very end.)

The skills of the heroes are generally fine. It's the lack of hp that makes them poor thugs.

I have the same problem with superhuman humans, but heroic abilities already allow that. Why can't heroes come with the equivalent?

What about an item that adds 10-20hp? Wouldn't unbalance existing SCs much, but would make human thugs much more survivable.

Hmm. That item would make lot of the lower-tier thugs more interesting... it'd probably come with a drawback, though. Like being a Heart. And those drawbacks usually hurt a human more than they'd hurt someone undead, like a Bane Lord. Humans are worse than other possible chassises for various items, so there can't be any items that ONLY affect humans, or that'd be good for humans and wouldn't be too good for others.

Cainehill said:

Perhaps I've read different mythology, folktales, and heroic fantasy than you - Vainamoinen (spelling), Cu Culain, Robin Hood / William Tell, Lancelot, Roland, even Falstaff, or even Rasputin. Not to mention Elric, Conan, and all the heroes from Zelazny, George R R Martin, Robert Jordan, etc, etc.

Considered what a _human_ mage can accomplish in the game, superhuman abilities in the heroes don't seem that outlandish. Especially when you consider the heroic abilities even "normal" recruitable human commanders can get, and Ulm's heroes don't seem that unreasonable. They're _unique_ where Bane Lords are spawned from a limitless stock of undead

Väinämoinen did what, exactly? He cast Petrify at Joukahainen. He cast equivalent of Cloud Trapeze on Ilmarinen. He crafted some items. Hmm. A giant (Vipunen) ate him and he made a fire into his belly, thus gaining control over him and trading the Giant's life for his knowledge. Phoenix Pyre?

If various melee heroes came with enough magic to buff themselves, they'd be rather nice thugs. Air for few illusions -> Vanir, etc. Vanir have just few hp, but were used as thugs at least in DomII. Air, Earth and Astral spells, at least, have buffs that would make the melee types much more survivable in melee/against magic.