The problem of low hit points on humans

[Forrest]

Hit points are not jack.

In my last game a 300+ Hp pretender jumped into a little slot between my blessed Wardens and my H inf all backed by longbows with aim. The fact it took 3 rounds to kill him is a tribute to the +95 hp for domain that he had.

This is a army game. Commanders die like flies no matter how many hit points. If he survives a few front line conflicts he'll be damaged or marked.

[Twan]

I think a difference should be made between normal humans and surhuman heroes. It's a shame to see most warrior type heroes useless except as normal leaders, they need more than 20hp to have an use as heroic warriors (I would even say 25-30 hp + recup or regen, as hp here represent their extra capacity to avoid any kind of dammage -defense doesn't work as "heroes points" as it's useless against missiles/spells, luck is an option but too random and easy to have with gear, 50% all resist is another-) . Anything that have high chances to be one-shoted by a fireball or a level 3 summon is not a med-fan heroic warrior. Anyway, normal, recruitable, humans are not supposed to be exceptionnal warriors, and I find normal to see them having less than 20 hp.

[thejeff]

Agreed. I don't have a problem with most of the non-mage human commanders being fragile. They're there to lead troops.

It's the human melee heroes that are a problem. They should be special and it seems worthless to just use them like indy commanders. Since Hall of Fame heroes can get hp increasing abilities, it doesn't seem out of line to boost some of the national heroes hp.

There are a few recruitable types (Paladins & Black Lords were mentioned) that don't seem to have any real purpose other than to be thugs, but they're really too fragile for that. Does anyone actually use them?

I'd also suggested, in another thread, an item that would add 10-15 hp. Enough to really help out the human thugs, but little enough to not be worth it on real SCs.

And Forrest, if that pretender had been kitted out as an SC he would have ignored the longbows and your Heavy Infantry. The blessed Wardens might have done some damage, depending. Hps are just a buffer to ward against lucky shots and to give time for life drain & regen to work.

[Shovah32]

E9N4 Paladins can make decent thugs, they also have high leadership, good movement and can bless your knights of the chalice.

[B0rsuk]

Twan said:
as hp here represent their extra capacity to avoid any kind of dammage -defense doesn't work as "heroes points" as it's useless against missiles/spells,

Wrong. Hp is here precisely to represent creatures who are more sturdy and can resist more damage dealt to them. I know there are some games out there that use this oversimplification (especially D&D) but here it's not the case. Titans aren't harder to hit with bows and crossbows, they're just more resistant. And you certainly can improve your toughness to a certain degree with exercises. Also, some people are just tougher than others.

Dominions is actually pretty realistic game. In real life, you can't count on dodging arrows on bullets. There's no contradiction here - even heroes have to obey basic rules of physics. Strenght of heroes often comes from skills. That's what I like about Dominions.

They can't be all heroes. Simple. You can never protect your thugs from everything. And it's clearly intentional judging by the way Illwinter changed buff spells in Dominions3. Many buff spells now add a disadvantage such as poison vulnerability.
Contrary to what some people (coming from shallow fantasy RPGs, no doubt) say, some armor and a shield is not wasted on a commander. If it was so simple, everyone would use commanders like Tien Chi's eunuch (essentially 9hp 0 prot, no equipment or something very similar). And people would kill themselves over a chance of playing Pangaea, because even small amount of harpies would be able to instantly kill all enemy commanders.
Really, there are still dangers, even if you command an army from rear row. Howl, Imps, harpies, arrows...

[Twan]

Yes, I've just said that Hp used the D&D way *in their case* are the best way to have med fan warrior type heroes (like you can find in legends or books) in the limits of the dominion system. The other approach for hp, using a low number for humans even exceptionnal + abilities like defense to avoid to be hit also came from RPGs (call of cthulhu, runequest etc...), but is far worse to simulate med fan warrior type heroes and make them useful in a strategy game, as dominions shows it. The main caracteristic of the cthulhu/runequest concept of hp is to be far more random, as it is "you dodge or die fast" instead of "the better you are the slower you die". Too much random to give a reason to risk gear on heroes used as warriors when there are summons with far more hp (or other stats have to be so better that this system would favor heroes far more than some use of the D&Dian hp concept).

[alexti]

Maybe it'd make sense if human heroes were giving extra experience to the troops they lead (some small bonus, let's say +3 per month). It is thematic and seems to fit into Dominion concept. Another option is to make some such heroes have +1 morale on the battlefield effect. Those look like effects real human heroes might have had.

[HoneyBadger]

I agree with everything that's been said against humans having extra hp. The reasons are solid. That said, I see no reason why a magic item couldn't be included in the game that would bump up hp. Maybe +15. Not a huge boost gameplay-wise, but it would help out human SC heroes while ofcourse draining that nation of valuable gems (I'm thinking 1 type that would cost 5 earth and 5 nature at const 6 and 1 type, possibly +25, that would cost 25 blood at const 4). Certainly, it should atleast further lead astray those who play with SC humans. And it could be decent, in combination with regeneration-to stick on a very weak human pretender, incase that pretender is going out-dominion, which he or she probably shouldn't be.

[Teraswaerto]

I've always liked how in Dominions HP is clearly tied to size. A human will die much easier than giant, and a giant will die much easier than an ancient Kraken. It makes such perfect sense, and there are very few exceptions to it.

[mivayan]

Twan said:
Yes, I've just said that Hp used the D&D way *in their case* are the best way to have med fan warrior type heroes (like you can find in legends or books) in the limits of the dominion system.

If you want to mod in Medieval Fantasy Heroes, higher hp works. But I'm glad they are not in the base game, humans surviving arrows and spells in a war zone doesn't fit in dominions.