The problem of low hit points on humans

[PvK]

Twan said:
Yes, I've just said that Hp used the D&D way *in their case* are the best way to have med fan warrior type heroes (like you can find in legends or books) in the limits of the dominion system.

I entirely disagree. In legends and books you do NOT see heroes that get hit by axes and swords and fireballs, and just chuckle and say, "Sorry, I'm a Hero(tm), and you will need to impale me another 50 times before it will have any effect!"

That's D&D, and the unwashed ocean of unimaginative-designed computer games that follow its mold.

In heroic legend and fiction, as well as in movies and in real life, extremely successful heroes survive combat by avoiding getting hit with a battleaxe (etc), through skill, luck, cunning, knowing when to run away, etc.

The other thing that makes heroic tales and heroes is 20/20 hindsight, not that some people are branded heroes and given the ability to ignore getting impaled, etc. That is, for every war hero, there are many others who in theory may have been just as tough, but who died or otherwise didn't get an opportunity to do anything heroic.

Twan said:
...
Too much random to give a reason to risk gear on heroes used as warriors when there are summons with far more hp
...

This I do agree with. Dominions currently offers many summons which are not only better than most regular humanoids, but are also more cost-effective once one has the means to summon them. So in a competetive multi-player game, after that point, it becomes the smart strategy to give the best magic items to those guys. Also, by that point in the game, battlefield magic is also really strong and cost-effective, also making humanoid thugs quite vulnerable. I see those as just logical effects of the magical arms race and the cheap costs given to high-powered magic, and not a reason to make a group of heroic humans with lots of hit points.

Using human thugs is one of my own favorite parts of Dominions, and I do it both in single-player and multi-player, though in multi-player late-game it's often not very cost-effective compared to the alternatives. It's a compelling challenge for me to try to keep my mortals alive and effective in the face of increasing magical threats. My approach to improve things is to make mods which help by offering a different magic cost balance, so human thugs can be closer to cost-effective even into the late game.

PvK

[Twan]

In legends and books you do NOT see heroes that get hit by axes and swords and fireballs, and just chuckle and say, "Sorry, I'm a Hero(tm), and you will need to impale me another 50 times before it will have any effect!"

It's why the D&Dian definition of hit points is "capacity to survive" *including all non conventional ways to avoid being hit*. The old D&D system even (perhaps not the last editions, I've stopped at AD&D 1 and this kind of concepts have been denatured by extra rules to sell paper since then) only included hp and armor (a little influenced by dexterity), not things like parry, acrobatic moves, zigzag runs to avoid missiles, having a bible which stop a bullet (oops Conan not Robert Mitchum), use of the corpse of a dead soldier as a shield, or any other thing Conan or Fafhrd will do 42 times per book. It's also why I consider logical if extra hp are given to heroes to represent that to give them also recuperation or regeneration to reduce the number of afflictions, as the extra h(it/eroic) points they lose are not supposed to represent real wounds in the heroes case (personnally I don't believe in culturism giving more than 1 or 2 "real" hit points).

[Potatoman]

It's amusing that the primary arguments used to defend the current model of national heroes being only slightly stronger than generic HI are "realism" and "common sense".
This is a game in which knife-wielding assassins charge at their targets over an open field, Minotaurs won't swing their axes at any enemy smaller than themselves, and magic is everywhere. Realism and common sense take a back seat to playability and theme in dominions.

In both real legends and "shallow fantasy RPGs" (quoted to preserve the snootiness), heroes are heroic because of their extraordinary skill, strength, power, etc. But this didn't really translate that well into dominions, where most of the heroes didn't get enhancements that are statistically significant enough to make them survivable in combat. I'd really like to see an official implementation of the Worthy Heroes mod or something similar.

[B0rsuk]

Realism is not mutually exclusive with fantasy. And yes, most RPGs are shallow, disconnected from reality, common sense, history. What I like about Dominions is that it feels much more real than most of game worlds out there. You never see an item described like 'This is a very manly talisman, and a woman wearing it will speak in low voice, or even grow a beard' in other games. This is because, unlike many others, Dominions draws heavily from history, real world beliefs, psychology etc.
Funny how you become original by drawing heavily from history and real-world myths.

I, in turn, find it amusing that so many people can't accept that cannon fodder can also exist in ancient/medieval styled worlds. Make one different fantasy game with cannon fodder and suddenly you missed the One True Way. I don't think it's a coincidence that sides are called Nations instead of Races, and Commanders instead of Heroes.

[Potatoman]

I, in turn, find it amusing that so many people can't accept that cannon fodder can also exist in ancient/medieval styled worlds. Make one different fantasy game with cannon fodder and suddenly you missed the One True Way. I don't think it's a coincidence that sides are called Nations instead of Races, and Commanders instead of Heroes.

So you believe that Dominions invented the faceless thug, and that it's suddenly become the step in game design? Would you also find it more realistic (and therefore better) to eliminate the magic summons or abstact them to re-skinned HI? Magic is, after all, part of the mythology & fantasy aspect of the game which you hold in such disdain.

Realism and fantasy are not mutualy exclusive, but they are by definition not entirely compatible. The issue is where you chose to sacrifice realism for fantasy and where you uphold history. Human heroes feature prominently in every single mythology, legend, and culture upon which Dominions is based, yet they are unworkable in the game. I agree that this is realistic. But it is also unthematic and untrue to the source material of the game. It's also pretty disappointing to finally get a national hero event (notice the distinction from "commanders" which are recruitable), only to find out that it's just some useless human "hero" with 2 more att than a normal schmuck. This isn't an irrational desire to impose "The One True Way" on anybody, this is an opportunity to improve the game.

[Epaminondas]

Potatoman said:
It's amusing that the primary arguments used to defend the current model of national heroes being only slightly stronger than generic HI are "realism" and "common sense".
This is a game in which knife-wielding assassins charge at their targets over an open field, Minotaurs won't swing their axes at any enemy smaller than themselves, and magic is everywhere. Realism and common sense take a back seat to playability and theme in dominions.

In both real legends and "shallow fantasy RPGs" (quoted to preserve the snootiness), heroes are heroic because of their extraordinary skill, strength, power, etc. But this didn't really translate that well into dominions, where most of the heroes didn't get enhancements that are statistically significant enough to make them survivable in combat. I'd really like to see an official implementation of the Worthy Heroes mod or something similar.

You took the words out of my mouth.

1. It's not like this game is intended to be historical or "realistic" a la the Total War series. Even then, the Total War series had certain units (remember the sword saint in the original version? and Generals after certain boots became near-superhuman in many versions) that defied conventional logic, units that could single-handedly take on hundreds of units.

2. I also noticed the "snoot[y]" comment you isolated--which must've been directed at me since I am the original poster. I suppose I must be a total loser because I must've played "shallow fantasy" games in the past (which is an unwarranted speculation itself, as I prefer strategy games). Truly amusing. I didn't know that there was a caste system among hardcore gamers.

3. To put things in perspective, I think I should re-emphasize it's not a dramatic HP point increase I am asking; i.e., I am not asking human commanders to be in anyways comparable to Basalt Kings or Niefel Jarls or what not. Not even close. I am asking an increase to the extent that the more heroic or successful or exceptional human commanders can reach around 20 HPs, without being a Prophet or acquiring an HP-enhancing Heroic trait. 20. That is all. You would still have less than a third of what a Niefel Jarl has and way less than half of other heavy hitters like Dai Onis or Basalt Kings.

4. In general, I am very disappointed at the level of interaction on this forum, if I may so. Sure, this is still a gamer forum but I'd expect better than what you'd find in, say, Warcraft III forums, given the complexity of this game and the comparatively high age of its fan base. But newcomers are persistently treated rudely by some posters (see Arralen's reponse to my damage question--even though I clearly said that I don't have the game manual and I apologized in advance if the question were so elementary; in particular, see the rather innocuous thread where a new poster posted his game impressions and what needs to be improved--causing an orgy of flame fest among the believers here).

In the end, I doubt Shrapnel or even the gaming community benefits much if you guys are so intent on offending those very potential customers who are relatively new to the game (e.g. me) but have enthusiastically embraced the Demo and wish to know more.

[Mind Elemental]

Epaminondas said:

4. In general, I am very disappointed at the level of interaction on this forum, if I may so. Sure, this is still a gamer forum but I'd expect better than what you'd find in, say, Warcraft III forums, given the complexity of this game and the comparatively high age of its fan base. But newcomers are persistently treated rudely by some posters (see Arralen's reponse to my damage question--even though I clearly said that I don't have the game manual and I apologized in advance if the question were so elementary; in particular, see the rather innocuous thread where a new poster posted his game impressions and what needs to be improved--causing an orgy of flame fest among the believers here).

In the end, I doubt Shrapnel or even the gaming community benefits much if you guys are so intent on offending those very potential customers who are relatively new to the game (e.g. me) but have enthusiastically embraced the Demo and wish to know more.

Commanders: What would be nice would be twofold:

- multiple levels of the standard ability (so a Firbolg with Valor, or an emerald lord, would have a greater effect than an ordinary Pythian standard bearer or centurion);

- lower all troops' morale, and to compensate give every commander a standard. Now taking along plenty of commanders to inspire the men -- and bringing good commanders -- would be important!

Heroes: I agree with what's been said here, and in the thread where someone first suggested giving the national heroes a boost in HP. The human melee heroes have awesome flavour, and are indeed superior to ordinary humans, but ultimately aren't much more useful than ordinary commanders. Try to use them as thugs, and you will be down a hero. Since all the fancy abilities (lifedrain, regen, etc) won't matter much if one lucky sword stroke can cut them down, I think increasing their HPs to 20ish is the simplest, most balanced way of boosting them. You still won't see them taking on armies by themselves, but with proper equipment, they could be quite decent army-supporting mini-thugs.

EDIT TO CLARIFY: I prefer, in principle, the better gear/abilities approach. However, I'm not sure it would be as useful in practice, for the reason mentioned above. Besides, you could also argue that heroic persistence/determination could lead to more HPs...

Rudeness: I see your point, but it only seems to be a minority. Please, hang around? The more of us here -- even as lurkers, like myself -- the better.

[Agrajag]

Epaminondas said:
4. In general, I am very disappointed at the level of interaction on this forum, if I may so. Sure, this is still a gamer forum but I'd expect better than what you'd find in, say, Warcraft III forums, given the complexity of this game and the comparatively high age of its fan base. But newcomers are persistently treated rudely by some posters (see Arralen's reponse to my damage question--even though I clearly said that I don't have the game manual and I apologized in advance if the question were so elementary; in particular, see the rather innocuous thread where a new poster posted his game impressions and what needs to be improved--causing an orgy of flame fest among the believers here).

In the end, I doubt Shrapnel or even the gaming community benefits much if you guys are so intent on offending those very potential customers who are relatively new to the game (e.g. me) but have enthusiastically embraced the Demo and wish to know more.

If I had to hazard a guess, it would be that Arralen thought that the lack of manual on your side has less to do with you playing the game's demo, and more to do with you obtaining a copy of the game in what we call here* cynically "my uncle from america"
Furthermore, I'm sure by looking at the date I registered and my post count you can see I've been here for a while (though much less time than the veterans, and quite a lot of none-veterans like myself), and I can tell you from experience that this community usually treats other people (including new guys) quite well, and often much better than in other communities I frequent**, with the exception of few who tend to be a bit more flame-happy (but are otherwise nice people).


*-here being Israel, but I'm sure you get my point.
**-This has a bit to do with the average age over here, but also about this being a small and "sheltered" community, in another forum I visit, seeing spam posts from random bored people, registering just to annoy other people, is not uncommon.

[Epaminondas]

Agarajag,

I am not sure what you meant by the following statement:

"If I had to hazard a guess, it would be that Arralen thought that the lack of manual on your side has less to do with you playing the game's demo, and more to do with you obtaining a copy of the game in what we call here* cynically 'my uncle from america'".

Regardless, I have made it clear that the primary reason I don't have a copy of the game is because my old computer has a CD-drive malfunction, and that I have ordered a new computer from Dell to replace it. Further, it makes no sense for me to have the full game when I can't play it until the new computer arrives. In fact, I have even started a thread asking what computer specification is needed to play the game tolerably, and further posted the specification of the computer I have ordered from Dell.

[Agrajag]

Epaminondas said:
Agarajag,

I am not sure what you meant by the following statement:

"If I had to hazard a guess, it would be that Arralen thought that the lack of manual on your side has less to do with you playing the game's demo, and more to do with you obtaining a copy of the game in what we call here* cynically 'my uncle from america'".

'my uncle from america' is an expression, describing something obtained from dubious sources, specifically, pirated games.
Furthermore, check out the Lich pretender, he has 30 HP, and that's because his body is "leathery and dry and lacks all organs of importance"
The ***** Queen has 25 hp, and she is a giant werewolf.
A Pheonix has 15 hp.
And I'd say its pretty obvious that there are more pretenders with even less HP, which are less worthy of mention.

So a boost to 20 HP is not minor thematically, and besides increasing a unit from 13 hp to 20 hp is a ~54% boost! (which would make them more than ~54% more valuable and useful)