The problem of low hit points on humans

[Endoperez]

I wouldn't say boost to 20 hp is thematically major, but it IS huge when compared to other units.

I don't think low hp are a problem. It makes some people's preferred tactics hard to pull off. There are many theoretical ways we can fix this, some of which might get more uniform support. We can't mod these things yet, and perhaps never will be able to, but here we go:

- Every star of experience gives an extra hitpoint. Some would opt for more than 1 hp, e.g. 1,1,2,1,2 hp. A 3-star human would have 3-5 extra hp (depending on suggestion), so 16 to 18 (if they started from 13, common for melee commanders).

- Lycanthropos' Amulet boosts the base unit instead of transforming the unittype. +1 att, +4 str, +10hp, "Bite" attack, regen, a downside or two. Again, details change between people.

I'm not sure why I even wrote this post, btw. It doesn't really add anything.

[Epaminondas]

Agrajag said:

'my uncle from america' is an expression, describing something obtained from dubious sources, specifically, pirated games.

If that is the case, then he was being a jack ***--pure and simple. Someone comes to a game forum looking for more information on the game before he buys it, and he is warrantlessly treated like a common thief?

WTF?

It also says a lot about the intelligence of such a person. If I actually had a copy of the full game (pirated or not) why would I be asking Endoperez and others for more photos of units that interest me--and ask other questions that clearly indicate that I do not know what happens in late-game?

But then I suppose behind the veil of anonymity online, you can throw out any kind of scurrilous accusations about someone, because you are not accountable.

[Zebion]

Why not give some heros, points of experience as their already gained,and boost them by that? Some of those heros have been fighting a long time

[Taqwus]

...in particular, it gives a way of distinguishing those that between veteran heroes who are unusually good mostly because of their experience (and thus who may not have that much room to improve, instead of getting 5 stars worth of additional experience and bonuses) versus those who have more innate potential (ex. the extremely lucky, the assorted spawn of philandering deities, et al).

But ordinary humans... are humans. Doesn't really matter how hardy they are when they've just been disemboweled with a trident or bitten in two by a dragon. High Defense, maybe even innate Air Shield (extreme skill at missile dodging) or if Luck were more granular rather than 50-50 always, perhaps lower encumberance reflecting staying power... most aren't walking around after being almost entirely dipped in the Styx, or bearing arms from the forges of Hephaestos, or walking around with god's blood.

[UninspiredName]

most aren't walking around after being almost entirely dipped in the Styx, or bearing arms from the forges of Hephaestos, or walking around with god's blood.

...And if they were, they'd be Pretenders. :P

At any rate, I suppose a line needs to be drawn between 'mundane' realism and 'suspension of disbelief' realism. In D&D HP is an abstraction, but just looking at the hitpoints of units in this game tells you they're not. The other RPGs people speak of are all centered on your party, so making them so vulnerable is a bad idea. In Dominions, between aging, afflictions, 'commander attack' spells, etc, it's obvious the 'characters' aren't meant to be constants to any extent.

...That's not to understate the effectiveness of an ordinary general on the frontlines with an attack-boosting item and a Wave Breaker. Just not alone. Also bring a backup general.

[PvK]

Even for the fictional heroes who manage to defeat many enemies in direct combat, are there any pre-D&D examples of heroes who do so because of a non-magical/blessed heroic ability to survive wounds that would drop lesser men? "Wound Sustaining Man"? "Sir Hurtmenot?" "Captain Fleshwound"?

The only "high HP" genre that comes to mind is SE Asian martial arts fantasy, where semi-magic Chi powers give hyper-expert heroic martial artists the ability to survive many blows that would incapacitate lesser men, but also give them the ability to jump 30 meters in the air, and defy physics in various other ways. Edit: Still, those are mostly fights with bare hands and feet or blunt and improvised weapons. When swordsmen are defeated by martial arts masters in these films, for example, they almost always do so by avoiding getting chopped or skewered, not by shrugging off weapon injuries.

[Hullu]

PvK said:
Even for the fictional heroes who manage to defeat many enemies in direct combat, are there any pre-D&D examples of heroes who do so because of a non-magical/blessed heroic ability to survive wounds that would drop lesser men? "Wound Sustaining Man"? "Sir Hurtmenot?" "Captain Fleshwound"?

Any pre-D&D? Herakles and Achilles come to mind. I doubt they're the only ones. Oh you mentioned non-magical/blessed - the Dom3 heroes ARE blessed and/or magical and/or just HEROES.

They're NOT called militia for a reason, or are they?

[Twan]

PvK said:
Even for the fictional heroes who manage to defeat many enemies in direct combat, are there any pre-D&D examples of heroes who do so because of a non-magical/blessed heroic ability to survive wounds that would drop lesser men? "Wound Sustaining Man"? "Sir Hurtmenot?" "Captain Fleshwound"?

One more time : the D&Dian original definition of hit points was "capacity to survive" *including all non conventional ways to avoid being hit*. To resume the original hit points are an abstraction representing not only endurance but luck, skill and fate of the character. D&D was based on miniatures strategy game rules, unlike the following RPGs made once they were a specific genre. In a miniature game you would have paid hundreds of budget points for your heroe, so you prefer "the better he is the longer he will survive, but he won't be able to survive without limit if you use him too much" (to resume : he worth his budget) over "he may dodge or be one shoted, if you have luck he will survive for eternity, if you have not... ahah you lose" (to resume : he may worth 0 or ten times his cost). I still can't understand how some strategy gamers may be so convinced that the D&D approach is only a weird RPG thing, and the second the best for strategy games, when it's very clearly the contrary IMHO.

[mivayan]

Potatoman said:
It's amusing that the primary arguments used to defend the current model of national heroes being only slightly stronger than generic HI are "realism" and "common sense".
This is a game in which knife-wielding assassins charge at their targets over an open field, (...)

The last guy to tell the general to not go for a morning walk alone was hanged. The general *always* goes for morning walks. Over fields. Too bad he's dead. Perhaps the next one will bring bodyguards.

Anyone got a quick reference to fun heroic tales that cant happen in current dominions?

[Taqwus]

Heroes, even in fantasy literature, are not exactly considered to be common. They're heroic due to persisting despite the fact that the odds ARE against them -- even the exceptional ones -- and because others WILL get stomped. Heroes try or die -- and the odds are that they die. Those piles of jewels, magical armor and ancient weapons lying around the dragon's lair didn't come from peasants or their goats. Those hordes of ravaging monsters are fearsome because they're NOT easy to defeat. That legendary beast which slew all the wannabe slayers for years... was killing those who thought themselves the best equipped, the bravest, the most skilled. Eventually, somebody succeeds and gets regarded as the savior of the realm to be respected while the also-rans get... some posthumous appreciation. Or the monsters run riot and destroy the kingdom, but that sort of dampens the ability to write sequels, and there aren't that many orcs or trolls to constitute a market for that sort of literature.

To make recruitable commanders have more hp to turn them into superhuman warriors is to ignore the point of heroism unless you're turning it into a vast nation of superior humans and pricing them accordingly. The few exceptional heroes themselves -- I'd concur with the notion that it's their skill, their guile, their luck, their willpower, and not too infrequently their gear that makes the most of the difference, at least for the humans. For half-human, half-sidhe champions or that sort of thing, other properties make some sense.