The problem of low hit points on humans

[PvK]

Thinking of HP as "heroic (survival) points" is an abstraction that might satisfy some players for a while. But it's not a very accurate abstraction, and of course leads to characters being practically unkillable until they wear out, which is good if your goal is to avoid making players sad by seeing their characters die by any sudden bad luck. Of course, when the HP run out in such a system, suddenly the character can't afford to stay in combat.

Personally, I enjoy that Dominions has more detailed game mechanics that more directly represent things like fatigue, luck, defense skill, etc, instead of lumping things into a big buffer of hitpoints. I also enjoy the unpredictableness of the results, and the sudden tragic injuries and losses (and successes) against the odds. I think a lot of interesting and sense-making cause-and-effect would be lost if a bunch of bonus hitpoints were thrown on some human characters to keep them alive (though I can see that some players would enjoy doing so in a mod in order to have it play more like games they're used to).

To increase the power and survivability of some heroes, I'd sooner give them higher Defense, Luck, MR, Air Shield (representing caution/tactics/dodging/whatever), or even a few points of Prot (representing toughness or the ability to do something to reduce wound severity), before I'd resort to dumping on HP.

As for arguments that "it's a fantasy game; it shouldn't be realistic" - bah! The detail and realism of the framework and non-magical statistics are what give the magical stuff context, meaning, and proportion. Without the foundation of realistic systems and appropriate values, the magic and fantastic stuff would lose its meaning. In Dominions, if a spell says it will rip people limb from limb, it really will - but as soon as people's Hit Points start multiplying, it's also nerfing the fantastic and removing its meaning - the giants would no longer be giants compared to men, etc.

As for citing weaknesses of the representation of assassination and trampling, those are just weaknesses, not intentionally put there to improve "playability and theme"!

I enjoy worthy heroes, but I want their abilities to fit the system rather than bend it (like my Warrior King of Ulm mod for Dom 2).

PvK

[Turin]

PvK said:

I enjoy worthy heroes, but I want their abilities to fit the system rather than bend it (like my Warrior King of Ulm mod for Dom 2).

PvK

May I ask which heroes you feel bend the system? I felt that I was pretty stingy with giving hp boosts and I think noone has more than 2 times as much as the base unit after which he is modelled, which was my upper limit.

[PvK]

Turin said:

May I ask which heroes you feel bend the system? I felt that I was pretty stingy with giving hp boosts and I think noone has more than 2 times as much as the base unit after which he is modelled, which was my upper limit.

Sorry Turin, I wasn't specifically criticising anything in Worthy Heroes mod. I was talking about the suggestion in this thread to multiply the HP of human units that players would like to use as thugs.

[curtadams]

Even if you insist on "realism" Dominions human thugs are far too fragile. Alexander the Great fought in the front of his army almost every battle and survived dozens of battles, even without the high-end equipment that won't save a human commander on the front lines in Dom. That would be essentially impossible in Dominions. There would be more variety from a game interest viewpoint if human could be made into worthwhile low-end melee thugs. More realistic, more to play - what's not to like about toughening up at least human heros a bit?

[UninspiredName]

Yes, but Alexander the Great didn't survive those battles by taking a direct hit from a halberd or javelin, and didn't really turn the tide of battle (Aside from morale, I guess) by being on the frontlines. I half-think the guy had a lot of luck as well as his combat prowess that kept him alive.

And remember, even in most fantasy, a hero rarely manages to alter the outcome of a battle by killing a ton of enemies in pitched combat. Usually they use some sort of magic, use the terrain, (say, triggering a rockslide) or take out an enemy commander, usually the last of the three. Rarely do you get a hero that can stand up to even ten enemies on his own. I'll also point out that these heroes are also rarely targetted by hostile magic and that, when they are, it's frequently a struggle to survive.

[Shovah32]

And your also forgot to add that alexander the great wasnt fighting huge dragons, undead monsters and lightning bolts coming down from the sky.

[Epaminondas]

Shovah32 said:
And your also forgot to add that alexander the great wasnt fighting huge dragons, undead monsters and lightning bolts coming down from the sky.

Yes, but Alexander also didn't have all those magical trinkets and other magical boosts to help him either.

[curtadams]

Shovah32 said:
And your also forgot to add that alexander the great wasnt fighting huge dragons, undead monsters and lightning bolts coming down from the sky.

I don't have a problem with much of that (other than of course many Dom3 undead are pretty pathetic) but the problem is that it doesn't take anything like that to kill a melee commander. 20 hp heros will accomplish your idea quite nicely as a dragon will still shred them.

[Cainehill]

UninspiredName said:
And remember, even in most fantasy, a hero rarely manages to alter the outcome of a battle by killing a ton of enemies in pitched combat. Usually they use some sort of magic, use the terrain, (say, triggering a rockslide) or take out an enemy commander, usually the last of the three. Rarely do you get a hero that can stand up to even ten enemies on his own. I'll also point out that these heroes are also rarely targetted by hostile magic and that, when they are, it's frequently a struggle to survive.

Really??? I wonder what fantasy it is that you've read, because I can remember a _lot_ of fantasy heroes who butchered armies (Elric of Melnibonea being a classic example, or at least slaughtering warbands of well over 10 enemies ( Aileron and Arthur at different times in Guy Gavriel Kay's Fionavar Tapestry, said trilogy having made it to "best 100 works of fantasty" status, the Morigu trilogy, a number of heroes from the late lamented Paul Edwin Zimmer's books, even the classic "The Worm Ouroboros" from 1922 ).

As far as surviving magic goes, I could give similarly long lists of fiction in which they do just that - some of Glen Cook's works, David Gemmell's, Moorcock, Tanith Lee, etc, etc, etc.

Kindly note that some of those are considered to be amongst the great, seminal, writers of fantasy. And then there's also mythology and fable.

[UninspiredName]

I didn't say that they don't usually survive a magic attack, but from my experience the heroes tend to really take a hit from magic arrayed against them. On the other hand, you've obviously read more fantasy than me.

Fair enough on the others, though.