The problem of low hit points on humans

[mivayan]

Potatoman said:
It's amusing that the primary arguments used to defend the current model of national heroes being only slightly stronger than generic HI are "realism" and "common sense".
This is a game in which knife-wielding assassins charge at their targets over an open field, (...)

The last guy to tell the general to not go for a morning walk alone was hanged. The general *always* goes for morning walks. Over fields. Too bad he's dead. Perhaps the next one will bring bodyguards.

Anyone got a quick reference to fun heroic tales that cant happen in current dominions?

[Taqwus]

Heroes, even in fantasy literature, are not exactly considered to be common. They're heroic due to persisting despite the fact that the odds ARE against them -- even the exceptional ones -- and because others WILL get stomped. Heroes try or die -- and the odds are that they die. Those piles of jewels, magical armor and ancient weapons lying around the dragon's lair didn't come from peasants or their goats. Those hordes of ravaging monsters are fearsome because they're NOT easy to defeat. That legendary beast which slew all the wannabe slayers for years... was killing those who thought themselves the best equipped, the bravest, the most skilled. Eventually, somebody succeeds and gets regarded as the savior of the realm to be respected while the also-rans get... some posthumous appreciation. Or the monsters run riot and destroy the kingdom, but that sort of dampens the ability to write sequels, and there aren't that many orcs or trolls to constitute a market for that sort of literature.

To make recruitable commanders have more hp to turn them into superhuman warriors is to ignore the point of heroism unless you're turning it into a vast nation of superior humans and pricing them accordingly. The few exceptional heroes themselves -- I'd concur with the notion that it's their skill, their guile, their luck, their willpower, and not too infrequently their gear that makes the most of the difference, at least for the humans. For half-human, half-sidhe champions or that sort of thing, other properties make some sense.

[Epaminondas]

Taqwus said:
Heroes, even in fantasy literature, are not exactly considered to be common. They're heroic due to persisting despite the fact that the odds ARE against them -- even the exceptional ones -- and because others WILL get stomped. Heroes try or die -- and the odds are that they die....

To make recruitable commanders have more hp to turn them into superhuman warriors is to ignore the point of heroism unless you're turning it into a vast nation of superior humans and pricing them accordingly....

Taqwus,

Let me make two points.

First, again, I think you--like other posters here--are vastly (to be ironic here) exaggerating the level of HP increase I would prefer. In fact, I would say you and others are misrepresenting my argument to discredit me. So let me put things into perspective.

A base HP of around 20 for a human nation's best melee commanders would be only 7-8 HP increase from the current commanders. For some human nations (e.g. Ulm), it would be an increase of only 4-5 hit points. Does such a modest gain really constitute tranmogrifying these commanders into "superhuman" (your adjective) Herakles and Beowulfs? Oh, my. I think the true heroes of legend would be insulted, to put it mildly. Herakles (who by the way an offspring of a mortal and a god, a la our own Pathos) single-handedly took out monsters that would be represented by units with over 100 HPs in this game!

Even from a "realistic" perspective, is it so implausible to consider that the very toughest, meanest human soldiers can be 70-80 percent more or even twice as tougher or durable than your common everyday soldier? Humans display an amazing variety, and if you have read the annals of warfare throughout the ages, some men are clearly capable of--whether through simply a hardier constitution or willpower--shrugging wounds that would incapacitate or even kill the vast majority of men.

I can understand the uproar if I actually suggested that human commanders ought to have 30-40 HPs, but really, I think you protest too much in this context.

Second, okay, you say that genuine heroes "are not exactly... common" even in fantasy literature.

Fine. Would you then consider it permissible to at least apply the HP increase I suggest to national "heroes" we get? There aren't too many of them per nation (save a few exceptions), so having 3-4 humans per nation with such "superhuman" traits would not be so "common" or unbalancing in my opinion.

[Lord_Bob]

I know this is an old topic that I am resurrecting, but instead of making the "Human Heroes" more powerfull.... why not make more of them? Certainly there are more humans than Giants, so why not more human heroes? Make the "Heroe Event" for the "lesser" heroes more common???? OR Make it for more heroes. Like a squad of Human Heroes show up, instead of one ancient vampire. There defense and attack should be bumped up a lot though. It's not like that will stop them from dying.

"And he killed a man with every stroke... until the arrow hit him in the eye."