The problem of low hit points on humans

[curtadams]

Endoperez said:Marius Lorca is one of the few units in Dominions who has base Attack rating over 15. He has 16. Bane Lords, Scorpion Men, the Devourer of Souls, Devata, Dai Oni, one Heliophagus - 14. Firbolgs, Tartarians, at least 3 of the elemental royalty, Arch Devil, Abomination, angelic Seraph - 15. In a quick browse through the manual, I found only Wraith Consuls, Wraith Lords and the Ashen Angels (from Manifestation), and Horrors (from Send Horror). Horrors had attack 18, the three others had attack 16.

That indicates not that Marius Lorca has a fabulous attack skill but that attack skill doesn't vary much in Dominions. He hits about 3-4 times as often as a smuck human. If he had "heroic" skill, akin to fiction, you'd be looking at a 50-100-fold ratio. Absolutely nothing in Dominions fights anything like Bruce Lee or Fafhrd.

[curtadams]

Originally D&D hit points were the ability to take damage. "Cure", "heal", "rest" were all based on that concept. I don't remember if it was explicit (the original books were just pamphlets and lacked extensive discourses on concepts and design philosophy), but it was pretty obvious. However, from the start, D&D took a lot of flack from the ridiculous results, like competent characters easily being able to survive being squashed by a large boulder. The patch for this was to reinterpret "hit points" as an abstraction reflcting the ability to survive by any means, not just to able to take the damage. This was made "official" in AD&D in 1980 although many (including me) had already come up with it on their own. I remember this pretty well as I'd had numerous arguments with people over reinterpreting hit points and really enjoyed shoving that passage under their noses when it came out.

Unfortunately "cure" spells and the like were never reinterpreted in light of the reinterpretation. In fairness, D&D is a game, not a sim, and the HP abstraction works pretty well for having fun regardless of the bizarrities simulating certain events.

[PvK]

curtadams said:

That indicates not that Marius Lorca has a fabulous attack skill but that attack skill doesn't vary much in Dominions. He hits about 3-4 times as often as a smuck human. If he had "heroic" skill, akin to fiction, you'd be looking at a 50-100-fold ratio. Absolutely nothing in Dominions fights anything like Bruce Lee or Fafhrd.

Things with stacked abilities (magic, blessings, experience, heroic abilities, spells, etc.) do. Do you really think you want supercombattants to simply show up for free and not need to take any risk or investment before they start wiping out entire armies without risk? If so, it can easily be modded in.

BTW, comparing Marius Lorca with _no_ experience and no magic items to a plain trained heavy infantryman (#38) (skills at 10, equipped a spear, ringmail, shield) spear-carrier: Looks to me like Marius hits him and not the shield 76% of the time averaging 10 points of damage after armor (the man has 10 HP). If such a man tries to hit minimal Marius Lorca, he has a 6% chance, and even if he hits, has only about a 14% chance of doing any damage at all through Marius' armor. That's before Marius gets any experience or abilities or magical help, etc.

PvK

[UninspiredName]

At any rate, healing potions (and potions in general) are cheaper now as well, and it's not so much that clerics/druids are necessary anymore as that they're grossly overpowered. (Particularly Druids) I wouldn't know much about AD&D, I've only gotten into it a couple of years ago. (3.5 edition)

[Graeme Dice]

PvK said:
If such a man tries to hit minimal Marius Lorca, he has a 6% chance, and even if he hits, has only about a 14% chance of doing any damage at all through Marius' armor.

So, in other words, when he experiences 30 attacks in ten rounds of combat against size two opponents, he's not particularly likely to survive.

Edit:Size two opponents, not size three.

[PvK]

Graeme Dice said:

So, in other words, when he experiences 30 attacks in ten rounds of combat against size two opponents, he's not particularly likely to survive.

Edit:Size two opponents, not size three.

Yes, which only makes complete sense, if he is getting ganged up by a steady stream of enemies at 3:1 odds. That's why you don't send him out alone, but assign a few men to stay with him on Guard Commander, and place him near other blocks of troops, etc.

[Graeme Dice]

PvK said:
Yes, which only makes complete sense, if he is getting ganged up by a steady stream of enemies at 3:1 odds. That's why you don't send him out alone, but assign a few men to stay with him on Guard Commander, and place him near other blocks of troops, etc.

It's clear that you don't have much understanding of the battle mechanic from this statement. It doesn't matter if you give him bodyguards, or supporting troops, since melee attacks are effectively all concentrated on the most survivable unit in a square. In a single combat round, every single attack will be dealt to him (or to friendlies in the same square until they are dead) until he dies and they move onto the next target. 3:1 odds are almost exactly what a unit needs to be able to survive when supported by other troops because three units ganging up on a single other unit is the norm in dominions.

[Twan]

Ewierl : (longely explained in other messages of the thread, the question is how to boost heroes and I support an use of D&Dian hp for them it's why there is a "here" in the sentence and why I've also suggested to be logical and to give them a way to avoid afflictions as their extra hp wouldn't be "real hp" but hero points ; muscle can't give a sufficient number of "real" hp to make humans heroes worth to give them gear IMO).

[Turin]

For the people who can´t accept a bit higher hp for heros:

Consider this:
a run of the mill human unit has 10 hp.

The most skilled recruitable human fighters already have 15+hp(Emerald Lord,Warrior Chiefs, Boar Lord etc). So clearly skilled fighters can gain more than the ordinary amount of hps. Why does it break immersion then if Hero units, i. e. the best of the best have ~20 hp?
After all it would be only the logical progression from
standard soldier---->elite soldier---->Hero

[Arralen]

Graeme Dice said:
It doesn't matter if you give him bodyguards, or supporting troops, since melee attacks are effectively all concentrated on the most survivable unit in a square.

Where did you get this from?
I haven't found it in neither the Dom2 nor the Dom3 manual, nor did Kristoffer or Johan ever mention this, AFAIK.
And my own observations tell me otherwise, too.

In a single combat round, every single attack will be dealt to him (or to friendlies in the same square until they are dead) until he dies and they move onto the next target.

This is a contradictory statement - in itself and therefore to everything you're posting here.

In fact, I think I have empirical evidence that at least the target of all attacks vs. a square is chosen randomly, if not every single target.
Which one from the following units would you consider "most survivable unit"?:

Light Infantry #29
HP 10, Prot 15/8, Def 13 (actual fat in the test battle: 8, therefore no reduction)

Heavy Infantry #40
HP 10, Prot 17/14, Def 13 (actual fat: 6, no penalty)

Jaguar Warrior #727
HP 12, Prot 6/7, Def 13, regen 1 (actual fat: 4, no penalty)