The problem of low hit points on humans

[Arralen]

Graeme Dice said:
It doesn't matter if you give him bodyguards, or supporting troops, since melee attacks are effectively all concentrated on the most survivable unit in a square.

Where did you get this from?
I haven't found it in neither the Dom2 nor the Dom3 manual, nor did Kristoffer or Johan ever mention this, AFAIK.
And my own observations tell me otherwise, too.

In a single combat round, every single attack will be dealt to him (or to friendlies in the same square until they are dead) until he dies and they move onto the next target.

This is a contradictory statement - in itself and therefore to everything you're posting here.

In fact, I think I have empirical evidence that at least the target of all attacks vs. a square is chosen randomly, if not every single target.
Which one from the following units would you consider "most survivable unit"?:

Light Infantry #29
HP 10, Prot 15/8, Def 13 (actual fat in the test battle: 8, therefore no reduction)

Heavy Infantry #40
HP 10, Prot 17/14, Def 13 (actual fat: 6, no penalty)

Jaguar Warrior #727
HP 12, Prot 6/7, Def 13, regen 1 (actual fat: 4, no penalty)

[Sheap]

I don't really understand what Graeme is saying about attacks concentrated on the "most survivable unit" in a square. The closest thing to that I can think of is that attacks are targeted randomly until everyone has died except the toughest unit, then the toughest unit is hit for the remainder of the round. Which means that the toughest unit receives most of the attacks because he is left after everyone else has died and there is no one else for the enemies to hit.

This hardly counts as needing to survive 3:1 odds. Even if both your other friendly troops are killed with a single attack each, the chaff factor lowers your odds to at worst 2:1, and that is only if the enemy troops are capable of killing yours very easily. In reality most of the time the difference in infantry will not be so dramatic (your troops might even be better than the enemy) and the friendly infantry will significantly increase the survivability of the commander.

[HoneyBadger]

First reply:
You haven't upset me Agrajag, I was being sarcastic on the first occasion, and teasing on the second.

I've tried twice now to make sense of your hp formula, and I can't, but I'm tired, so maybe it makes sense. I do remain unconvinced that it's simpler to understand than my idea, but it may work as well. As it is, it might as well be written in Yiddish, worse infact because atleast I comprehend how the Yiddish language operates, more or less, and can consult outside sources.
The choice of 12 sizes isn't meant to be relevant beyond being a nice range, a perfect number, and the cultural relevance of the number 12. It's just a good number to settle on, one most people are familiar with from elementary mathematics, and easy to divide.

As per mages, I'll accept that mages are powerful, but I fail to see how my hp. system, even in relation your explanation, can be blamed for this. By cutting mages' hp. in half in comparison to all other units, I think I've done my part to reduce their power. Since you seem to be saying that it doesn't matter how many hp. mages have anyway, then what difference does it make if they have more or less total under a new system, if that system gives them a relative total of half all other commanding units?

My next statement (4) was written to agree with your point and to expand it. I don't feel it's necessary that it exist to support my suggestion, it doesn't implode it in any way, though, and serves to illustate my point that randomness can be used subjectively and in moderation, and that my system can simulate this as well or better than another.

The reason your hp + size, hp - size idea doesn't make a lot of sense is because it doesn't have any reason behind it, there's no system to support it. You're picking size to base calculations on hp without having a reason for picking size. You might as well pick haircolor and base a number off that. You could give them all levels and it would be the same D&D logic. It's the same argument that a very tough human should have half again as many hp, or double hp, or whichever random percentile of hp the arguer feels would be right, and that's all it is, a feeling. Size 1 units would have a randomness of -1 or +1, that's not enough of a variety to illustrate anything, it doesn't say anything about that unit, it's just arbitrary. 6 hp variation on a very large unit amounts to the same or less difference. Rather than having the opportunity to compare humans against each other, you're just bringing it down to size again. It's just not a very useful tool because not very much can be done with it, and what can be done, is done to every single unit. With my system, you can break down races into subgroups. You can do weak groups, elite groups, ultra-elite, groups with a broad range of hp, groups who all have the same hp, anything you like. With your idea, you've basically got slightly weak, average, slightly tough. Larger creatures, for no good reason, have a much broader range of differences than small creatures, while at the same time those differences mean very little and are purely based on size and randomness. It's far less in the "style" of Dominions than my idea because it's a slanted oversimplification. Sometimes simple is just not best.

Second reply:
Agrajag, PD is thematic, but you also have to look at it from a pragmatic perspective if you want to find any facts, or if not facts then sense. The dumb ones (or the ones who don't have a real choice in the matter) are the ones leaving their families and farms to the mercy of whatever comes along. Maybe, like the Vikings, they don't own enough farmland to prosper and are tough people with excellent wartime skills and a need to go out and build up their gene-pool, or like the Mongols, they're a nomadic people anyway, have a chip on their shoulder, and find warfare and conquest far easier than farming. Anybody just out there fighting is doing it for someone else's glory, because they have to, because it's their job, and because they don't have the skills or the inner strength and stoicness to be farmers, or the brains and capital to be merchants. The only really smart soldiers are the ones who have something to gain from conquest, and they aren't that smart because they're taking a big risk in the first place. People back then, atleast poor people with no say, like what would make up your version of PD, went to war for 3 reasons: 1 because they had to, 2 because they were ordered by their liege and they had to, or 3 because they didn't have families, didn't own any property, didn't have any peacetime skills, and they had to. But mostly, they did it because they had to, not because someone was paying them to. The mercenaries were either big-contract guys working for wealthy empires like Carthage, or they were roving bands of homeless people who happened to pick up military skills in the process of preying on farmers. PD would be made up of older, well-established citizens with property, their first and second sons, and those men-at-arms they would hire to protect their property, which men would not be fat and lazy, or the homeland would be at risk and money-valuable solid currency-would be wasted. Your fat, lazy types would run away or be slaughtered.

Whole networks of highly disciplined agents would be minding the borders of a well-established, well-run nation, especially if you consider that in Dom, they wouldn't be on the alert just for wolves or human raiders, but all manner of magic, spells and beings. You're looking at things from a modern perspective at small kingdoms in midieval times that happened to be run sloppily, not at nations like Rome, Greece, and China where being on the alert for enemies was very big business indeed. In Greece and Rome for instance-atleast early Rome, you had to be a soldier just to own land, and a landowner just to be a citizen, and most of those citizens, including Socrates, served in wartime and didn't just suddenly forget how to be soldiers, sit around and get fat. In China, in 300 years, the Great Wall was only overrun 36 times, that's pretty good considering how many miles the Great Wall runs. In a smaller kingdom, providing the ruler wasn't completely inbred, there would be a citizen defense force, well-maintained and trained on a regular basis, and most if not all citizens, serfs, nobles, peasants, everyone who wasn't an outright bottom-of-the-barrel slave, would contribute to that force, because the threat of destruction would be great. All you need are a few dozen horsemen with torches going through your fields at harvest-time and you're burying your kids for Christmas, providing they don't get eaten by the wolves, lions, leopards, coyotes, bears, etc. that your fat and lazy guards let run loose.

I'll probably be suggesting that PD become more complex, once I work out a solid system, and I look forward to you complaining about it

[Agrajag]

HoneyBadger said:
I've tried twice now to make sense of your hp formula, and I can't, but I'm tired, so maybe it makes sense. I do remain unconvinced that it's simpler to understand than my idea, but it may work as well. As it is, it might as well be written in Yiddish, worse infact because atleast I comprehend how the Yiddish language operates, more or less, and can consult outside sources.

The choice of 12 sizes isn't meant to be relevant beyond being a nice range, a perfect number, and the cultural relevance of the number 12. It's just a good number to settle on, one most people are familiar with from elementary mathematics, and easy to divide.
The only number 12 divides by that 6 doesn't, is 12.
This would also add a lot of numbers that you may want to divide by, but can't.
Beyond that, the problem with 12 sizes is just that it would require a lot of work to be fitted into Dominions
You'd have to:
A) Create a new forumla for supplies. Possibly changing every single supply item to reflect this change.
B) Go over almost every single "water breathing" item and double its water breathing value.
C) Partially rewrite the combat simulator (since a single tile supports up to 6 size)

As per mages, I'll accept that mages are powerful, but I fail to see how my hp. system, even in relation your explanation, can be blamed for this. By cutting mages' hp. in half in comparison to all other units, I think I've done my part to reduce their power. Since you seem to be saying that it doesn't matter how many hp. mages have anyway, then what difference does it make if they have more or less total under a new system, if that system gives them a relative total of half all other commanding units?
Fine, then let me explain it again:
With the system you suggest, you make every single unit besides mages much less good, since these units become much less reliable and desirable to recruit.
Mages however, are unaffected, because the desirability of a mage rarely has anything to do with his HP, but depends mostly on what paths he has, and partly on encumberance and age.

The reason your hp + size, hp - size idea doesn't make a lot of sense is because it doesn't have any reason behind it, there's no system to support it. You're picking size to base calculations on hp without having a reason for picking size. You might as well pick haircolor and base a number off that. You could give them all levels and it would be the same D&D logic. It's the same argument that a very tough human should have half again as many hp, or double hp, or whichever random percentile of hp the arguer feels would be right, and that's all it is, a feeling. Size 1 units would have a randomness of -1 or +1, that's not enough of a variety to illustrate anything, it doesn't say anything about that unit, it's just arbitrary. 6 hp variation on a very large unit amounts to the same or less difference. Rather than having the opportunity to compare humans against each other, you're just bringing it down to size again. It's just not a very useful tool because not very much can be done with it, and what can be done, is done to every single unit. With my system, you can break down races into subgroups. You can do weak groups, elite groups, ultra-elite, groups with a broad range of hp, groups who all have the same hp, anything you like. With your idea, you've basically got slightly weak, average, slightly tough. Larger creatures, for no good reason, have a much broader range of differences than small creatures, while at the same time those differences mean very little and are purely based on size and randomness. It's far less in the "style" of Dominions than my idea because it's a slanted oversimplification. Sometimes simple is just not best.
1) No, in your idea HP is based solely on size, which would mean the difference between different "elite levels" of units is their size. So are more elite units now suddenly bigger in size?
Furthermore, Size as variation does make sense, because usually the bigger the general size of the race, the more variation there will be. Mice differ in length by mere CM, Giants can differ in height by meters.

Second reply:
Agrajag, PD is thematic, but you also have to look at it from a pragmatic perspective if you want to find any facts, or if not facts then sense. The dumb ones (or the ones who don't have a real choice in the matter) are the ones leaving their families and farms to the mercy of whatever comes along. Maybe, like the Vikings, they don't own enough farmland to prosper and are tough people with excellent wartime skills and a need to go out and build up their gene-pool, or like the Mongols, they're a nomadic people anyway, have a chip on their shoulder, and find warfare and conquest far easier than farming. Anybody just out there fighting is doing it for someone else's glory, because they have to, because it's their job, and because they don't have the skills or the inner strength and stoicness to be farmers, or the brains and capital to be merchants. The only really smart soldiers are the ones who have something to gain from conquest, and they aren't that smart because they're taking a big risk in the first place. People back then, atleast poor people with no say, like what would make up your version of PD, went to war for 3 reasons: 1 because they had to, 2 because they were ordered by their liege and they had to, or 3 because they didn't have families, didn't own any property, didn't have any peacetime skills, and they had to. But mostly, they did it because they had to, not because someone was paying them to. The mercenaries were either big-contract guys working for wealthy empires like Carthage, or they were roving bands of homeless people who happened to pick up military skills in the process of preying on farmers. PD would be made up of older, well-established citizens with property, their first and second sons, and those men-at-arms they would hire to protect their property, which men would not be fat and lazy, or the homeland would be at risk and money-valuable solid currency-would be wasted. Your fat, lazy types would run away or be slaughtered.

Whole networks of highly disciplined agents would be minding the borders of a well-established, well-run nation, especially if you consider that in Dom, they wouldn't be on the alert just for wolves or human raiders, but all manner of magic, spells and beings. You're looking at things from a modern perspective at small kingdoms in midieval times that happened to be run sloppily, not at nations like Rome, Greece, and China where being on the alert for enemies was very big business indeed. In Greece and Rome for instance-atleast early Rome, you had to be a soldier just to own land, and a landowner just to be a citizen, and most of those citizens, including Socrates, served in wartime and didn't just suddenly forget how to be soldiers, sit around and get fat. In China, in 300 years, the Great Wall was only overrun 36 times, that's pretty good considering how many miles the Great Wall runs. In a smaller kingdom, providing the ruler wasn't completely inbred, there would be a citizen defense force, well-maintained and trained on a regular basis, and most if not all citizens, serfs, nobles, peasants, everyone who wasn't an outright bottom-of-the-barrel slave, would contribute to that force, because the threat of destruction would be great. All you need are a few dozen horsemen with torches going through your fields at harvest-time and you're burying your kids for Christmas, providing they don't get eaten by the wolves, lions, leopards, coyotes, bears, etc. that your fat and lazy guards let run loose.
Now, are we talking history of fantasy here?
1st of all, not all nations are Rome, Greece or China, so you can't apply that model to everyone. And considering how Ermor (the equivilant of Rome in dom) has excellent PD, the distinction can be quite clear.
Beyond that... The more standard image of provincial defence in fantasy books (remeber, Dominions is fantasy), is that of the local schmoe doing guard duty.
Mostly this is because of several reasons:
1) All the good warriors have been sent to war, leaving only the weaker and dumber schmoes that can't do much behind.
2) The local population is made up of farmers, they can't afford anything better some renegade rouge turned mercenary. This can be seen in the game as well, your rich capital starts out well defended (25 PD), and also by how PD is purchased in a small, one-time cost which is all the farmers can afford (And can also be seen by the fact that PD is made up of the weaker soldiers of that nation, and usually is very lousy.)
3) Medieval, lamely run countries (as you more or less refer to them) are pretty much the model of every one of the more common fantasy books, so it makes sense to follow that model.
4) PD is all the force that that poor province could muster to defend itself against an attack, not some uber-elite force that likes to hang 'round back.
5) Also remember that the local population of the province usually isn't of the same type as the conquering nation, which can be seen by the difference between troops you can build in your capital, and the units the local province can recruit. The PD however is made up of troops from your home province, which would mean the guys sent over for guard duty must be the lowest quality of all, these are the guys that were refused into the regular military that is already stretched trying to conquer the entire world (or atleast all of the victory points )


I'll probably be suggesting that PD become more complex, once I work out a solid system, and I look forward to you complaining about it
I'll only complain about it if I wont like
Also, writing my post gave me the idea that maybe PD should depend on the local populace rather than the conquering nation's forces. Probably except in the case of a fortress in that province which allows recruitment of national troops.
Maybe if you put that in your idea I'll like it better

[Epaminondas]

I just want to announce that my copy finally arrived!

[NTJedi]

Epaminondas said:
I just want to announce that my copy finally arrived!

Now you have a very good reason to never work again!

[HoneyBadger]

Sorry it's taken so long for me to respond, Agrajag, but I've had the worst cold. I'm not going to copypaste the whole argument and take your statements apart line by line because the modifiers have asked that we keep that sort of thing to a minimum.

First of all, Agrajag, randomness doesn't make a unit better or worse by itself. All you're saying is that you prefer cloned robots in sterile environments over dynamic models. So would I if I were fighting a war with them, but that doesn't mean such a thing makes the game better in any way. One of the best parts of this game is that unpredictible things can and do happen.
Yes, Mages have abilities which are not Hp dependent, my suggestion to combat this might be to make some spells cost hp to cast. Regardless, you're not making a valid argument because the problem with Mages exists now as you state it, and my Hp system doesn't affect it, other than changing something unrealistic into something more realistic. Eggs-your sterile environment where all the baby chicks look alike-must be broken to make a good omelette.

Second of all, yes, 12 sizes would take more work to implement, because you'd be doubling the scale of the combat square. That would both cause problems and create opportunities.
12 divides by 4. It divides by half, thirds, fourths, sixths, and twelths, which makes it more useful than the number 6, and infinitely better than the number 10, which I'm glad to see Dom makes minimal use of. It's just a suggestion though, to reiterate: done for personal preference and because it provides nice scaling.

No, in my idea, Hp are not based solely on size, which is why I allow for a broad range of Hp at every size level to reflect various degrees of toughness at every level of size. If I suggested that units have from 1 to 12 hp depending on their size level, instead of per size level, with the minimum Hp modified by size level, then your statement would be correct.
Elite units would probably fall between 9 and 11 hp per size level. The range of randomness should be quite small due to the selection process you mentioned earlier, and because I agree that, generally speaking, more expensive, resource-intensive units should be more predictible (but not totally, automatonically predictible).

Ok, here is where you are the most incorrect, I feel. Dom is fantasy, yes, but it's not the kind of pulp fantasy you're referring to. It's based on real-world history and real-world mythology, as well as creative fantasy, which is different than elves and dwarves and dragons in different lewd combinations. The "fantasy books" it's based on, if any, are H.P. Lovecraft's works, the Mabinogion, the Bible, the Prose and Poetic Eddas of Snorri Sturluson, the Egyptian and Tibetan Books of the Dead, the Illiad and the Odyssey, etc. So, while not all nations are Rome or Greece or China, all of the nations in the game are meant to be every bit as valid as a Rome a Greece or a China, which means they should be portrayed as realistic and sensible to a competitive degree. And for that matter, quite a lot of the nations aren't medieval. I dislike the word "fantasy" used to discribe this game and related areas of interest, anyway, I feel it's not only incorrect, but demeaning. Even Tolkien, who started the whole pulp fantasy phenomenon (with help and influence from H. Ryder Haggard, R.A. Howard, H.P Lovecraft, C.S. Lewis and L. Frank Baum, among others) was-along with his peers-a great deal more creative and energetic than much if not most of the derivitive drivel that came after. It's a good thing there were authors like Michael Moorcock and Fritz Leiber writing fantasy, or I might have become an accountant or a lawyer.