Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?

[NTJedi]

BigJMoney said:
I can't find any chinks in the Vanheim armor.

Could they possibly be nerfed some time? Please? I really like them, but I don't want an easy game, nor do I want to upset people in MP by choosing them.
=$= Big J Money =$=

The nation can be modded to suit your needs following the instructions inside the modding manual or you can choose another nation. Plenty of fun nations to play for each era. If all nations were perfectly balanced then it would limit game options for SP gamers.

[Edi]

NTJedi said:Some nations should be much more powerful for SP games and MP games. The powerful nations are needed in MP because gamers new to Dominions_3 should be allowed to compete playing the strongest nations. And with SP gamers the stronger nations are needed to provide a greater challenge as the game becomes easier and easier.

Bull****. A newbie player who jumps into a big game with very experienced players will get what's coming and that's probably a sound stomping. At least he'll learn from it. The obvious solution is to play with people more in your own league until you get the hang of it before you try slugging it out against the big boys. My first MP was against a fairly experienced bunch of people and I actually managed to finish fourth out of eight, but that was due to a lot of things, luck as well. My second, I got stomped.

Lamest excuse ever for not tweaking something obviously too strong down a notch or two so that it will only be strong instead of ridiculously strong.

Edi

[NTJedi]

Edi said:
Bull****. A newbie player who jumps into a big game with very experienced players will get what's coming and that's probably a sound stomping.

Yeah lets stomp and pound the newbie player by turn_12 in the blitz game... oh gosh... he never returned... wonder WHY !!

Edi said:
At least he'll learn from it. The obvious solution is to play with people more in your own league until you get the hang of it before you try slugging it out against the big boys.

Based on the type of games available, the type of players in the game and the time available for the newbie player... gamers must choose what works for them.
And even if they do move into a game for newbies, there's no stopping an experienced player from logging in unrecognized and dominating.

Edi said:
My first MP was against a fairly experienced bunch of people and I actually managed to finish fourth out of eight, but that was due to a lot of things, luck as well. My second, I got stomped.

Not everyone has your personality, thus many gamers new to multiplayer gaming will only stomach getting stomped a few times before just flat out quitting. The powerful nations provide the newbie a stronger sense of security when moving into the multiplayer arena.

Edi said:
Lamest excuse ever for not tweaking something obviously too strong down a notch or two so that it will only be strong instead of ridiculously strong.

Edi

There's LOTS of nations for every age and more coming... there's no reason for the game not to have a few very powerful nations which provide more variety into the game. If you want something completely balanced all the way around go play rock, paper, scissors.
If the developers wanted something completely balanced they would not have Vanheim and Helium designed the way they do now. You don't like it... then go develop a mod.

[Zebion]

I got stomped once,about to get stomped twice,learned some new strategies in the process with two nations.


Also learned starting with nearly Pure swamplands nearby usually spells doom for gold reserves , but one does have to press on to learn , whether through victory (To find processes that work) or defeat (to find what plain out doesn't work)

[Valandil]

Hmmm. Stupid test I realize, but interesting nontheless.

25 W9 F9 Helhirdings, 3 Hangadrotts (!).

25 E9 N9 Living Pillars. Warriors of Muspelheim (!!!). The uber-king-of-basalt-doom that cast the warriors then ordered to retreat.
3 basalt kings with boots of behemoth, no buffs.


The vanir routed, taking 8 losses.
4 pillars died.
so did all three kings.

Note: even this crazy test ends up in helheim's favour.

[HoneyBadger]

Ok, first of all, beware the Valks, the very first test game I ran, I forgot about valkyries and let's just say it's not fun to watch 8 units worth 4000gold get killed in one battle just because you don't have a good rear guard.

Second thing, Atlantis automatically has a big advantage over Helheim because you don't have to worry about them hitting you while you take over the sea, in the meantime you can research like crazy and attack them with 10-1 odds at your leisure. As long as your smart (not like me with the Valks) and pick them apart, Helheim doesn't stand a chance against EA Atlantis in a 1 on 1 fight. This should hold true even in multiplayer, as long as the player playing Atlantis is experienced and patient.

More to come on this subject as I do more tests, but for now, if you know you're going to face Helheim, Atlantis is a great counter, and while Van can cross the sea, they can't enter the sea, so it should hold true for Van as well.

[HoneyBadger]

By the way, I favor an imprisoned Wyrm with E10/N9 for Atlantis vs Helheim, with Luck 2, Growth 1, the rest of the scales at -3, and Dom 5. My Wyrm is imprisoned, which gives me lots of time to research Enchantment, for personal regeneration, etc. Growth and Luck are very important because this is going to be a battle of attrition, which is where Helheim really lacks. Their blessed sacreds are very powerful, it's true, but with W9/F9 you know you're not going to face a Dom10 pretender, Dom is going to be around 4 at most, which means not too many sacred troops coming out at a time, and roughly half of those should be valkyries, because they're so useful, and valkyries aren't as tough as Hangedrott calvalry.
E10 gives me plenty of prot for both my pretender and my Basalt Kings, and better than prot, it gives me +5 rejuvenation, which my Kings need because they're beautiful spell platforms and great fighters, and it means they can outlast the Vans in a fight, magical or physical. The nature 9 is good for regeneration and berserk, but this could easily be something else, astral for multiplayer or water or even death. I like it because of the spells which add to the attrition factor, like Gift of Health, because it makes my sacreds tougher and lets me build amulets of rejuvenation, and because I can create a very efficient supply-chain for my troops, while their troops are suffering from starvation and disease.

[Corwin]

HoneyBadger said:
Ok, first of all, beware the Valks, the very first test game I ran, I forgot about valkyries and let's just say it's not fun to watch 8 units worth 4000gold get killed in one battle just because you don't have a good rear guard.

Second thing, Atlantis automatically has a big advantage over Helheim because you don't have to worry about them hitting you while you take over the sea, in the meantime you can research like crazy and attack them with 10-1 odds at your leisure. As long as your smart (not like me with the Valks) and pick them apart, Helheim doesn't stand a chance against EA Atlantis in a 1 on 1 fight. This should hold true even in multiplayer, as long as the player playing Atlantis is experienced and patient.

More to come on this subject as I do more tests, but for now, if you know you're going to face Helheim, Atlantis is a great counter, and while Van can cross the sea, they can't enter the sea, so it should hold true for Van as well.

Sorry, but I have to disagree. 1 vs 1 Helheim will eat EA atlantis for breakfast, as song as there is reasonable proportion of land to ocean provinces, like on standard MP maps. If you don't believe me we can play 1 vs 1 blitz with me playing Helheim and you playing EA Atlantis. I can promise you'll get your *** on the plate though, since the game would be very lopsided. Vanheim has always been my favorite nation in Dom, and I hate to say it, but to be honest I have to say that they did become stronger in Dom3.

(Note that I am not saying they should be nerfed, just commenting on Helheim vs Atlantis scenario)

BTW I am not sure if you have played much against good helheim players HoneyBadger. It does not make much sense to spend huge amount of points on W9/F9 and to have dominion 4. The minimum dominion level f9/W9 Helheim should be playing is 6 or higher, and you can easily get it without crippling yourself too much.

[Edi]

NTJedi said:
Yeah lets stomp and pound the newbie player by turn_12 in the blitz game... oh gosh... he never returned... wonder WHY !!

Anyone entering Dom3 MP games expecting anything else at the beginning is obviously too naive for his own good. Doesn't mean that a more experienced player necessarily needs to go full throttle at them, but if it happens, it happens. If you're trying to twist my words around as if I advocated piling on newbies, you can go play with yourself.

NTJedi said:
Based on the type of games available, the type of players in the game and the time available for the newbie player... gamers must choose what works for them.
And even if they do move into a game for newbies, there's no stopping an experienced player from logging in unrecognized and dominating.

Then that would suggest the problem being with the experienced player being something of an arsehole rather than there bring a problem with the concept of a newbie game, wouldn't it?

NTJedi said:

Not everyone has your personality, thus many gamers new to multiplayer gaming will only stomach getting stomped a few times before just flat out quitting. The powerful nations provide the newbie a stronger sense of security when moving into the multiplayer arena.

The harsh fact is that for most people, winning a Dominions game is a fairly rare treat unless they take part in a crapload of games. Powerful nation or not, a newbie is going to get a drubbing when he moves into a game with experienced people. The only question is how bad, and that depends on quite a few things. But that does not address the issue of an obvious balance problem in any way, shape or form.

NTJedi said:
There's LOTS of nations for every age and more coming... there's no reason for the game not to have a few very powerful nations which provide more variety into the game. If you want something completely balanced all the way around go play rock, paper, scissors.

Take your sanctimonious attitude and shove it up your arse. I've never demanded complete balance for any Dominions game and I don't appreciate you trying to put words into my mouth. There is a difference between "powerful" and "ridiculously lopsided", which is what Huzurdadi, Graeme and I have been saying here.

NTJedi said:
If the developers wanted something completely balanced they would not have Vanheim and Helium designed the way they do now. You don't like it... then go develop a mod.

What I said about your attitude still applies here. Only you should do it with a cattle prod. In case you didn't happen to read the latest interview posted, the developers add new nations based on gut feeling and what feels thematically correct without worrying about balance. Occasionally that results in something that needs to be toned down and the Vanheim and Helheim issue is one of those.

As far as developing a mod or providing other content for the community goes, I've done a ****load more than you've ever dreamed of doing and I've no problem claiming that I've got a better understanding of Dominions as a whole than you do.

Now if you would care to actually address the points raised instead of whining like whipped dog, be my guest, but otherwise you can sod off.

Edi

[NTJedi]

Edi said:

If you're trying to twist my words around as if I advocated piling on newbies, you can go play with yourself.

Such immature behavior, as hard as it may be for you keep your conversation civilized please do your best.

NTJedi said:
Then that would suggest the problem being with the experienced player being something of an arsehole rather than there bring a problem with the concept of a newbie game, wouldn't it?

The point being that if a few stronger nations exist within the game then the newbie players have more of a sense of security and confidence for starting a multiplayer game. "It's much harder learning how to ride a bike by starting up a steep hill."
Also SP gamers need very powerful nations whether they are new to the game or experts looking for a powerful enemy.

Edi said:
The harsh fact is that for most people, winning a Dominions game is a fairly rare treat unless they take part in a crapload of games. Powerful nation or not, a newbie is going to get a drubbing when he moves into a game with experienced people. The only question is how bad, and that depends on quite a few things. But that does not address the issue of an obvious balance problem in any way, shape or form.

As mentioned earlier the stronger nations provide the newbie gamers more confidence when playing a multiplayer game. And there's no balance problem since there's LOTS of nations for every era. Also your desire to weaken the stronger nations is from a multiplayer only view. In singleplayer games many new gamers enjoy playing the stronger nations and as they become more experienced they enjoy playing against the stronger nations. The game is very successful in its current format and I doubt we'll being seeing a change for the few wanting the "weaken the stronger nations" view.

Edi said:
There is a difference between "powerful" and "ridiculously lopsided", which is what Huzurdadi, Graeme and I have been saying here.

There's LOTS of nations... either don't play the few strong nations or develop a mod. The game in its current format is what has made it successful for BOTH multiplayer and singleplayer games.

Edi said:What I said about your attitude still applies here. Only you should do it with a cattle prod. In case you didn't happen to read the latest interview posted, the developers add new nations based on gut feeling and what feels thematically correct without worrying about balance. Occasionally that results in something that needs to be toned down and the Vanheim and Helheim issue is one of those.

Perhaps if you return to a good school you'll be more civilized on the forums. The rude behavior in your posts will eventually cause you to receive warnings from the moderators.
And the fact that a few nations are very powerful out of fifty nations is not an issue. You can easily choose to not play those nations or mod those nations since the average multiplayer game is 10 nations.

Edi said:
As far as developing a mod or providing other content for the community goes, I've done a ****load more than you've ever dreamed of doing and I've no problem claiming that I've got a better understanding of Dominions as a whole than you do.

Great then go create the mods for Vanheim and Helheim. There's no reason the entire community should accept the fate of no more very powerful nations just to satisfy your multiplayer gaming needs.