Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?

[Edi]

NTJedi said:
Yeah lets stomp and pound the newbie player by turn_12 in the blitz game... oh gosh... he never returned... wonder WHY !!

Anyone entering Dom3 MP games expecting anything else at the beginning is obviously too naive for his own good. Doesn't mean that a more experienced player necessarily needs to go full throttle at them, but if it happens, it happens. If you're trying to twist my words around as if I advocated piling on newbies, you can go play with yourself.

NTJedi said:
Based on the type of games available, the type of players in the game and the time available for the newbie player... gamers must choose what works for them.
And even if they do move into a game for newbies, there's no stopping an experienced player from logging in unrecognized and dominating.

Then that would suggest the problem being with the experienced player being something of an arsehole rather than there bring a problem with the concept of a newbie game, wouldn't it?

NTJedi said:

Not everyone has your personality, thus many gamers new to multiplayer gaming will only stomach getting stomped a few times before just flat out quitting. The powerful nations provide the newbie a stronger sense of security when moving into the multiplayer arena.

The harsh fact is that for most people, winning a Dominions game is a fairly rare treat unless they take part in a crapload of games. Powerful nation or not, a newbie is going to get a drubbing when he moves into a game with experienced people. The only question is how bad, and that depends on quite a few things. But that does not address the issue of an obvious balance problem in any way, shape or form.

NTJedi said:
There's LOTS of nations for every age and more coming... there's no reason for the game not to have a few very powerful nations which provide more variety into the game. If you want something completely balanced all the way around go play rock, paper, scissors.

Take your sanctimonious attitude and shove it up your arse. I've never demanded complete balance for any Dominions game and I don't appreciate you trying to put words into my mouth. There is a difference between "powerful" and "ridiculously lopsided", which is what Huzurdadi, Graeme and I have been saying here.

NTJedi said:
If the developers wanted something completely balanced they would not have Vanheim and Helium designed the way they do now. You don't like it... then go develop a mod.

What I said about your attitude still applies here. Only you should do it with a cattle prod. In case you didn't happen to read the latest interview posted, the developers add new nations based on gut feeling and what feels thematically correct without worrying about balance. Occasionally that results in something that needs to be toned down and the Vanheim and Helheim issue is one of those.

As far as developing a mod or providing other content for the community goes, I've done a ****load more than you've ever dreamed of doing and I've no problem claiming that I've got a better understanding of Dominions as a whole than you do.

Now if you would care to actually address the points raised instead of whining like whipped dog, be my guest, but otherwise you can sod off.

Edi

[NTJedi]

Edi said:

If you're trying to twist my words around as if I advocated piling on newbies, you can go play with yourself.

Such immature behavior, as hard as it may be for you keep your conversation civilized please do your best.

NTJedi said:
Then that would suggest the problem being with the experienced player being something of an arsehole rather than there bring a problem with the concept of a newbie game, wouldn't it?

The point being that if a few stronger nations exist within the game then the newbie players have more of a sense of security and confidence for starting a multiplayer game. "It's much harder learning how to ride a bike by starting up a steep hill."
Also SP gamers need very powerful nations whether they are new to the game or experts looking for a powerful enemy.

Edi said:
The harsh fact is that for most people, winning a Dominions game is a fairly rare treat unless they take part in a crapload of games. Powerful nation or not, a newbie is going to get a drubbing when he moves into a game with experienced people. The only question is how bad, and that depends on quite a few things. But that does not address the issue of an obvious balance problem in any way, shape or form.

As mentioned earlier the stronger nations provide the newbie gamers more confidence when playing a multiplayer game. And there's no balance problem since there's LOTS of nations for every era. Also your desire to weaken the stronger nations is from a multiplayer only view. In singleplayer games many new gamers enjoy playing the stronger nations and as they become more experienced they enjoy playing against the stronger nations. The game is very successful in its current format and I doubt we'll being seeing a change for the few wanting the "weaken the stronger nations" view.

Edi said:
There is a difference between "powerful" and "ridiculously lopsided", which is what Huzurdadi, Graeme and I have been saying here.

There's LOTS of nations... either don't play the few strong nations or develop a mod. The game in its current format is what has made it successful for BOTH multiplayer and singleplayer games.

Edi said:What I said about your attitude still applies here. Only you should do it with a cattle prod. In case you didn't happen to read the latest interview posted, the developers add new nations based on gut feeling and what feels thematically correct without worrying about balance. Occasionally that results in something that needs to be toned down and the Vanheim and Helheim issue is one of those.

Perhaps if you return to a good school you'll be more civilized on the forums. The rude behavior in your posts will eventually cause you to receive warnings from the moderators.
And the fact that a few nations are very powerful out of fifty nations is not an issue. You can easily choose to not play those nations or mod those nations since the average multiplayer game is 10 nations.

Edi said:
As far as developing a mod or providing other content for the community goes, I've done a ****load more than you've ever dreamed of doing and I've no problem claiming that I've got a better understanding of Dominions as a whole than you do.

Great then go create the mods for Vanheim and Helheim. There's no reason the entire community should accept the fate of no more very powerful nations just to satisfy your multiplayer gaming needs.

[Graeme Dice]

NTJedi said:
The point being that if a few stronger nations exist within the game then the newbie players have more of a sense of security and confidence for starting a multiplayer game. "It's much harder learning how to ride a bike by starting up a steep hill."

No, what actually happens here in the real world is the newbies pick Ulm, thinking that it's a powerful nation (while nothing could be further from the truth), because they are new and don't understand the game, while the better players will pick the powerful nations and play them to win.

Also SP gamers need very powerful nations whether they are new to the game or experts looking for a powerful enemy.

Then they can mod those nations in. The default game should be balanced as well as is possible.

As mentioned earlier the stronger nations provide the newbie gamers more confidence when playing a multiplayer game. And there's no balance problem since there's LOTS of nations for every era.

This is a particularly silly thing to say. "Balance doesn't matter because there's lots of nations to pick." Now, please tell me how you plan to ensure that people only pick the nations that are balanced with each other? Are we supposed to limit the game so that there are even fewer viable choices compared to Dom2?

Stronger nations don't provide new players with more confidence for several reasons. The first being that truly new players aren't going to do particularly well against experienced players no matter what nation they pick. The second is second is that new players don't know what the strong nations are. They will pick nations like MA Ulm or T'ien Ch'i and then wonder why they are defeated in the first 10 turns.

Also your desire to weaken the stronger nations is from a multiplayer only view.

Yes, that's because the game is first and foremost a multiplayer game.

The game is very successful in its current format and I doubt we'll being seeing a change for the few wanting the "weaken the stronger nations" view.

I suppose that you've polled the Dominions community to determine what they want? Or is this another one of your crusades against Ghost Riders or about the AI building castles where you post identical arguments enough times that you cause people to leave the forum when they get fed up with you?

The rude behavior in your posts will eventually cause you to receive warnings from the moderators.

And, unfortunately, despite the fact that you are one of the rudest people on the entire forum, you'll never get warned, no matter how many experienced players you drive off, because you cover your insults with a fake veneer of civility.

And the fact that a few nations are very powerful out of fifty nations is not an issue.

Of course it's an issue. The issue is that those nations are too powerful.

You can easily choose to not play those nations or mod those nations since the average multiplayer game is only 8 nations.

Whatever happened to your refusal to use mods, and refusal to suggest that other people use mods NtJedi? I also love how your great solution to the problem is to ban nations from multiplayer, instead of fixing the actual problem. That's a cery fanboy attitude.

There's no reason the entire community should accept the fate of no more very powerful nations just to satisfy your multiplayer gaming needs.

In other words, you want to continue to be allowed to cheat against the AI by playing the overpowered nations, instead of having to feel like you're cheating by modding the game to make it easier for you.

I also suggest that you not pretend to know what the community wants, since you've clearly not done any research on the subject.

[Edi]

NTJedi said:
Such immature behavior, as hard as it may be for you keep your conversation civilized please do your best.

Perhaps if you had gone to any kind of school that taught manners you'd be able to refrain from using that bloody rolleyes icon every time somebody disagrees with you. It gives the impression of you having your nose stuck up in the air so high that it rains INTO your nostrils. So don't be surprised that you get a response in kind. We have a saying here that goes something along the lines of "So the forest answers as it is called" and you're just seeing it in action.

NTJedi said:
The point being that if a few stronger nations exist within the game then the newbie players have more of a sense of security and confidence for starting a multiplayer game. "It's much harder learning how to ride a bike by starting up a steep hill."

See what Graeme posted. As well, you still refuse to address the distinction between "strong" and "ridiculously lopsided". Of course there are stronger and weaker nations, just as there were in Dom1 and Dom2, but that does not mean that some have to be orders of magnitude above others. You do understand the concept "order of magnitude", I hope?

NTJedi said: Also SP gamers need very powerful nations whether they are new to the game or experts looking for a powerful enemy.

Then they can either mod them or play with self-imposed handicaps such as not maxing out everything as per competitive MP style play.

NTJedi said:
As mentioned earlier the stronger nations provide the newbie gamers more confidence when playing a multiplayer game.

Provided they know which nations are the strongest and that they are not already taken. See Graeme's point again. New players do not need excessive security guarantees, they just need a decent chance and the more experienced people giving them a few breaks instead of ruthlessly exploiting every mistake they see the newbie making.

NTJedi said:
And there's no balance problem since there's LOTS of nations for every era.

There's no balance problem what with certain natiuons being ridiculously stronger than others because there's a lot of nations total. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
In case you aren't familiar with logic, that's a non sequitur.

NTJedi said:
Also your desire to weaken the stronger nations is from a multiplayer only view. In singleplayer games many new gamers enjoy playing the stronger nations and as they become more experienced they enjoy playing against the stronger nations. The game is very successful in its current format and I doubt we'll being seeing a change for the few wanting the "weaken the stronger nations" view.

As Graeme said, the MP aspect is one of the most important aspects of the game and a driving force behind the community. Hence things that detract from it, such as obvious balance problems that are not within the normal variation, are bad for the game and for the community. Why the hell do you think the CB mods were such a big hit with Dom2? They removed the most glaring problems while maintaining the game as it was meant to play. This issue is no bloody different.

NTJedi said:

There's LOTS of nations... either don't play the few strong nations or develop a mod. The game in its current format is what has made it successful for BOTH multiplayer and singleplayer games.

Yeah. What you've been saying all along. It's perfectly all right as long as you exclude these strong ones, which detracts from the game far more than nerfing them enough that they'd still be strong instead of ridiculously powerful.

As I recall, Dom2 experienced a resurgence after the CB mods because the most glaring issues of ridiculous lopsidedness were fixed in those. So why the hell should we not have it addressed now while Dom3 is still young?

NTJedi said:
Perhaps if you return to a good school you'll be more civilized on the forums. The rude behavior in your posts will eventually cause you to receive warnings from the moderators.

Perhaps I'm not as interested in making snide remarks from behind a false veneer of mock-politeness as you are. I'm treating you in just the manner you deserve and as you might have noticed, I've been quite the opposite of rude to others here. If I think something is a stupid idea or at least not well thought out, I'll say so directly. Just as I did when I first called bull**** on your opinion and you chose to try to put words in mouth to make it seem as if I was advocating a far different position. That goes beyond being just rude, it shows you to be a deliberately dishonest person so I don't see why I should be kissing your rear and nodding sagely to the tune of your droning.

NTJedi said:

Great then go create the mods for Vanheim and Helheim. There's no reason the entire community should accept the fate of no more very powerful nations just to satisfy your multiplayer gaming needs.

So, in addition to me busting my arse creating documentation that will enable better modding and mapmaking, I should also go and do the specific mods to address an issue that the majority here see as a problem just so that you can sit on your backside and pontificate without ever providing any kind of evidence, calculations, or even logically consistent reasoning for your positions?

Why don't you go back to playing AoW:SM and polluting the AoW Heaven forums? You've been so bent on turning this game to a micromanagement hell what with all the suggestions down the years that I'm inclined to give actual bull**** far more value than your opinion. After all, it can be used for fertilizer where as your views amount to little more than hot air most of the time.

Edi

[Kristoffer O]

Hmm, nice are we

I'm somewhat surprised about the development of this thread. Keep the discussion, but quit this [censored], please! (sorry about the language, I usually do not include feces in my posts).
Belittling someone, or their work, is not nice. Showing the entire forum that you disrespect another member is not nice either. Do that in PM's, if you have to.

You have good things to say, so do that! Not this!


Hmm, consider this a warning in disguise. I don't think I have to be more stern than this, but it is a warning none the less.

BTW, 'I'm sorry' is a nice phrase

[Kristoffer O]

Hmm, seems I got caught by some rudeness filter. I suppose that is good.

[Edi]

Very well. I think I'll take a step back and concetrate on the DB project for a while. I'll make sure that this will not happen again.

Edi

[tombom]

It's important that you aim for some sort of balance in the standard game. Vanheim/Helheim are obviously overpowered and therefore should have some kind of nerf. I don't expect it ever to be perfectly balanced. If new people really want to have an easy nation to stomp all over the AI with, they can add a mod that does that. For someone that is new to the series and has never been a good game player, I found the Easy AI easy enough that I won my first game.

[HoneyBadger]

Thanks Kristoffer.

I'm not intending this to be a kiss-bottom post by any means, although I suppose it may seem like one. It just touches me that, for a game with only 2 principle designers, one of them is willing to take time out of his day to make an effort to keep not only the forum friendly, but a specific thread, said thread furthermore questioning that developer's judgement and published design.

I've lived too long to expect that we can all get along at every moment, or even consistently, but I hope that atleast we can remember that this just a friendly game, and that one of the purposes of a game is to make friends and build relationships. I hope that our common interest in helping to make this great game even better will in the end outweigh any enmity that differences of opinion and the weight of the past may engender.

[NTJedi]

Edi said:
Perhaps if you had gone to any kind of school that taught manners you'd be able to refrain from using that bloody rolleyes icon every time somebody disagrees with you. It gives the impression of you having your nose stuck up in the air so high that it rains INTO your nostrils. So don't be surprised that you get a response in kind.

We could both throw endless insults yet it doesn't provide any benefit to the topic of discussion. The rolleyes icon is used when someone cannot keep the conversation civilized and that's the only reason. I really do hope you can control your attitude so the discussion can be more productive.

Edi said:
See what Graeme posted. As well, you still refuse to address the distinction between "strong" and "ridiculously lopsided". Of course there are stronger and weaker nations, just as there were in Dom1 and Dom2, but that does not mean that some have to be orders of magnitude above others. You do understand the concept "order of magnitude", I hope?

As mentioned earlier there are LOTS of nations(over fifty) so even if Vanheim and Helheim are "very strong" there's plenty of other options for nations to choose. I could understand if the game only had about 5 nations, but that's not the case. Order of magnitude would be relevant if Vanheim and Helheim had to exist in every game. It's not mandatory for these nations to play in every game which removes them as a variable when not in a game.
The purpose of having some "very strong" nations serves multiple purposes. First newbies reading the forums and questioning their skills will more likely join a game knowing their first game is playing a very strong nation. Second in singleplayer games many gamers enjoy playing the very strong nations and as their experience grows they enjoy playing against the very strong nations. Third whether its singleplayer or multiplayer winning a game against a "very strong" vanheim is more rewarding than winning a game against a "nerfed" vanheim because the greater the challenge the greater the reward. And a fourth reason is for mapmakers which desire a few of the nations to be "very strong" allowing more options for creating maps. Even now I'm developing a map where the SP gamer will be playing the "very strong" Vanheim and going up against computer opponents which will be given great advantages which should provide some great battles.

Edi said:
Then they can either mod them or play with self-imposed handicaps such as not maxing out everything as per competitive MP style play.

Here you're suggesting a change so others have to do the modding or self-imposed handicaps instead of you accepting the game in its current state or making the adjustments yourself.

Edi said:
Provided they know which nations are the strongest and that they are not already taken. See Graeme's point again. New players do not need excessive security guarantees, they just need a decent chance and the more experienced people giving them a few breaks instead of ruthlessly exploiting every mistake they see the newbie making.

In most cases the newbies have to be on the forums to find the multiplayer games. As a result they will be curious enough to skim the bug thread and more popular topics such as this one.

Edi said:
There's no balance problem what with certain natiuons being ridiculously stronger than others because there's a lot of nations total. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
In case you aren't familiar with logic, that's a non sequitur.

There is no problem with balance when these nations don't have to exist in every game. I would agree with your balance concern if these very strong nations absolutely were part of every game, but there presence in the game is not mandatory. The host can easily remove them as an option using the #allowedplayer command.

Edi said:As Graeme said, the MP aspect is one of the most important aspects of the game and a driving force behind the community. Hence things that detract from it, such as obvious balance problems that are not within the normal variation, are bad for the game and for the community. Why the hell do you think the CB mods were such a big hit with Dom2? They removed the most glaring problems while maintaining the game as it was meant to play. This issue is no bloody different.

First the MP aspect is not the only part of the game and those non-MP gamers must be considered as well. If the developers wanted a MP only game then there would be no AI opponents. For the greatest success of the game it must grow with consideration to both MP gamers and SP gamers. And having Vanheim and Helheim as very powerful when over fifty nations exist will not hurt the MP gaming sessions when the host can easily remove them as an option.

Edi said:Yeah. What you've been saying all along. It's perfectly all right as long as you exclude these strong ones, which detracts from the game far more than nerfing them enough that they'd still be strong instead of ridiculously powerful.

As I recall, Dom2 experienced a resurgence after the CB mods because the most glaring issues of ridiculous lopsidedness were fixed in those. So why the hell should we not have it addressed now while Dom3 is still young?

Because Dominions is not a MP only community... changes to the game must consider those which play SP only, MP with AI opponents, and MP only.

Edi said:Perhaps I'm not as interested in making snide remarks from behind a false veneer of mock-politeness as you are. I'm treating you in just the manner you deserve and as you might have noticed, I've been quite the opposite of rude to others here. If I think something is a stupid idea or at least not well thought out, I'll say so directly. Just as I did when I first called bull**** on your opinion and you chose to try to put words in mouth to make it seem as if I was advocating a far different position. That goes beyond being just rude, it shows you to be a deliberately dishonest person so I don't see why I should be kissing your rear and nodding sagely to the tune of your droning.

Sorry you view my posts in such a negative manner. Yet as I mentioned earlier you're looking at this from a MP only view... which is why you don't understand the reasons I've provided.

Edi said:
So, in addition to me busting my arse creating documentation that will enable better modding and mapmaking, I should also go and do the specific mods to address an issue that the majority here see as a problem just so that you can sit on your backside and pontificate without ever providing any kind of evidence, calculations, or even logically consistent reasoning for your positions?

Why don't you go back to playing AoW:SM and polluting the AoW Heaven forums? You've been so bent on turning this game to a micromanagement hell what with all the suggestions down the years that I'm inclined to give actual bull**** far more value than your opinion. After all, it can be used for fertilizer where as your views amount to little more than hot air most of the time.

Hopefully the post from Kristoffer will water down your tainted mind. I've listed many reasons above for all ways the game can be played and why Vanheim and Helheim should not be nerfed. All your reasons revolve around MP only games. Changes to the game must consider those which play SP only, MP with AI opponents, and MP only.