Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?

[Villan]

Aseth said:

Van - 25 sacred vans with w9f9 bless,5 sacred van comanders(1 of them prophet),dominion 5, 3 order -3res 2drain 3 misfortune

C`Tis - 4 sauromancers, 1 Lizard King (Prophet),120 HI,3 lvl enchant reserched, dominion 5, 3 order, 3res, 3grows, 2 hot, 1 magic, 3 misfortune

C`Tis lose 20 battles from 20... sad

BUT now some MEGA-MAGIC-STRATEGIC-HINT, change 120 HI for
50Elite Warriors & 80 Slave Warriors(yep, i have so much money for them because of GOOD scales)

I'd suggest tweaking the gold used for these tests a bit. The Vanhere army costs 2050 gold to recruit. C'tis army costs 2740 gold to recruit. The units don't zoom to their deaths in 0 turns though do they? The sacred units are really quite a bit cheaper than they look like when you figure in a bit of upkeep. Assuming an average survival of 12 turns for any given unit, the Vanhere army costs you 2866 gold and the C'tis one 4816 gold. This is far more than can be explained with scales.

This is also not considering how superior the dual blessed Vanheres are in taking independents, that they are invisible, and fantastic raiders, all of which should figure in their gold cost imo.

[Aseth]

man, plz enough theory, run the test and check how many turns you need to produce enough Slave Warriors and even IF i build them not in last turns, i WILL have extra gold from patrolling my Capital with my high positive scales, again

yep, raiding, C`Tis lose 1vs1 to Van because of raids, but C`Tis lose to Pangea and Caelum because of rading too,it`s race specific of C`Tis

[mivayan]

NTJedi said:
Based on the type of games available, the type of players in the game and the time available for the newbie player... gamers must choose what works for them.
And even if they do move into a game for newbies, there's no stopping an experienced player from logging in unrecognized and dominating.

Some nations should be much better than others so that one newbie doesn't get crushed quickly by an experienced player sneaking into a newbie game? Odd logic. An experienced arsehole could probably manage to get helheim anyway.

Villan - Since I like removing missunderstandings: Aseth did an early era test, meaing it was sacred "Vanhere" units and not "Van" units. Vanheres have stronger offense but aren't nearly as hard to kill.

[Villan]

mivayan said:

Villan - Since I like removing missunderstandings: Aseth did an early era test, meaing it was sacred "Vanhere" units and not "Van" units. Vanheres have stronger offense but aren't nearly as hard to kill.

Yeah, I counted it with Vanheres, just lazy typing from me. Fixed the post.

[PDF]

Aseth said:
man, plz enough theory, run the test and check how many turns you need to produce enough Slave Warriors and even IF i build them not in last turns, i WILL have extra gold from patrolling my Capital with my high positive scales, again

yep, raiding, C`Tis lose 1vs1 to Van because of raids, but C`Tis lose to Pangea and Caelum because of rading too,it`s race specific of C`Tis

Do you really mean VANS or VANHERES ? Vanheres are much less good than Vans, and I suspect your Ctissians tactics will *all* miserably fail against real Vans (the ones with 24 def) ! [img]/threads/images/Graemlins/Cold.gif[/img]

[Aseth]

okey my little friends, test 2:
middle era.
Van attack from their dominion,C`tis from their

Van - same god, 9f+9w bless 25 vanriders with 24 def + 4 second sacred comanders. (1875 gold for regulars)

1)
C`Tis Miasma,Dominion10,all scales positive exept missfortune, 4 marshmaster, 25 swampguards 25 Slingers, 75 Slaves (2000 gold for regulars, EVOCATION 3 reserched - so NO skelspaming

ups, Van losing 20 of 20....

2)

OK, someone say 75 slaves is to mutch, upkeep,no time, bla-bla-bla

switch my 75 slaves for 25!!!! Swampguards

UPS, Van losing again...

poison slingers KILL all of the UBER-MEGA-Vans

3)OKAY switch 25 cheating-totally-unbalanced slingers to Swampguards, so its 50 swampguards , 75 Slaves total

ups again! van losing! BUT now non total massacre! some Vans survive and escape now! they are trully grate warriors!
now Sleep Clouds kill all Vans, how sad

[NTJedi]

Edi said:

If you're trying to twist my words around as if I advocated piling on newbies, you can go play with yourself.

Such immature behavior, as hard as it may be for you keep your conversation civilized please do your best.

NTJedi said:
Then that would suggest the problem being with the experienced player being something of an arsehole rather than there bring a problem with the concept of a newbie game, wouldn't it?

The point being that if a few stronger nations exist within the game then the newbie players have more of a sense of security and confidence for starting a multiplayer game. "It's much harder learning how to ride a bike by starting up a steep hill."
Also SP gamers need very powerful nations whether they are new to the game or experts looking for a powerful enemy.

Edi said:
The harsh fact is that for most people, winning a Dominions game is a fairly rare treat unless they take part in a crapload of games. Powerful nation or not, a newbie is going to get a drubbing when he moves into a game with experienced people. The only question is how bad, and that depends on quite a few things. But that does not address the issue of an obvious balance problem in any way, shape or form.

As mentioned earlier the stronger nations provide the newbie gamers more confidence when playing a multiplayer game. And there's no balance problem since there's LOTS of nations for every era. Also your desire to weaken the stronger nations is from a multiplayer only view. In singleplayer games many new gamers enjoy playing the stronger nations and as they become more experienced they enjoy playing against the stronger nations. The game is very successful in its current format and I doubt we'll being seeing a change for the few wanting the "weaken the stronger nations" view.

Edi said:
There is a difference between "powerful" and "ridiculously lopsided", which is what Huzurdadi, Graeme and I have been saying here.

There's LOTS of nations... either don't play the few strong nations or develop a mod. The game in its current format is what has made it successful for BOTH multiplayer and singleplayer games.

Edi said:What I said about your attitude still applies here. Only you should do it with a cattle prod. In case you didn't happen to read the latest interview posted, the developers add new nations based on gut feeling and what feels thematically correct without worrying about balance. Occasionally that results in something that needs to be toned down and the Vanheim and Helheim issue is one of those.

Perhaps if you return to a good school you'll be more civilized on the forums. The rude behavior in your posts will eventually cause you to receive warnings from the moderators.
And the fact that a few nations are very powerful out of fifty nations is not an issue. You can easily choose to not play those nations or mod those nations since the average multiplayer game is 10 nations.

Edi said:
As far as developing a mod or providing other content for the community goes, I've done a ****load more than you've ever dreamed of doing and I've no problem claiming that I've got a better understanding of Dominions as a whole than you do.

Great then go create the mods for Vanheim and Helheim. There's no reason the entire community should accept the fate of no more very powerful nations just to satisfy your multiplayer gaming needs.

[Graeme Dice]

NTJedi said:
The point being that if a few stronger nations exist within the game then the newbie players have more of a sense of security and confidence for starting a multiplayer game. "It's much harder learning how to ride a bike by starting up a steep hill."

No, what actually happens here in the real world is the newbies pick Ulm, thinking that it's a powerful nation (while nothing could be further from the truth), because they are new and don't understand the game, while the better players will pick the powerful nations and play them to win.

Also SP gamers need very powerful nations whether they are new to the game or experts looking for a powerful enemy.

Then they can mod those nations in. The default game should be balanced as well as is possible.

As mentioned earlier the stronger nations provide the newbie gamers more confidence when playing a multiplayer game. And there's no balance problem since there's LOTS of nations for every era.

This is a particularly silly thing to say. "Balance doesn't matter because there's lots of nations to pick." Now, please tell me how you plan to ensure that people only pick the nations that are balanced with each other? Are we supposed to limit the game so that there are even fewer viable choices compared to Dom2?

Stronger nations don't provide new players with more confidence for several reasons. The first being that truly new players aren't going to do particularly well against experienced players no matter what nation they pick. The second is second is that new players don't know what the strong nations are. They will pick nations like MA Ulm or T'ien Ch'i and then wonder why they are defeated in the first 10 turns.

Also your desire to weaken the stronger nations is from a multiplayer only view.

Yes, that's because the game is first and foremost a multiplayer game.

The game is very successful in its current format and I doubt we'll being seeing a change for the few wanting the "weaken the stronger nations" view.

I suppose that you've polled the Dominions community to determine what they want? Or is this another one of your crusades against Ghost Riders or about the AI building castles where you post identical arguments enough times that you cause people to leave the forum when they get fed up with you?

The rude behavior in your posts will eventually cause you to receive warnings from the moderators.

And, unfortunately, despite the fact that you are one of the rudest people on the entire forum, you'll never get warned, no matter how many experienced players you drive off, because you cover your insults with a fake veneer of civility.

And the fact that a few nations are very powerful out of fifty nations is not an issue.

Of course it's an issue. The issue is that those nations are too powerful.

You can easily choose to not play those nations or mod those nations since the average multiplayer game is only 8 nations.

Whatever happened to your refusal to use mods, and refusal to suggest that other people use mods NtJedi? I also love how your great solution to the problem is to ban nations from multiplayer, instead of fixing the actual problem. That's a cery fanboy attitude.

There's no reason the entire community should accept the fate of no more very powerful nations just to satisfy your multiplayer gaming needs.

In other words, you want to continue to be allowed to cheat against the AI by playing the overpowered nations, instead of having to feel like you're cheating by modding the game to make it easier for you.

I also suggest that you not pretend to know what the community wants, since you've clearly not done any research on the subject.

Aseth said:
ok, stupid iron numbers:
early era

Van - 25 sacred vans with w9f9 bless,5 sacred van comanders(1 of them prophet),dominion 5, 3 order -3res 2drain 3 misfortune

If it's early era you probably mean 25 Vanheres, as EA has no vans.
1250 gold 400 res
What commanders specifically did you use?

BUT now some MEGA-MAGIC-STRATEGIC-HINT, change 120 HI for
50Elite Warriors & 80 Slave Warriors(yep, i have so much money for them because of GOOD scales)

costs:
960 gold 240 res slave warriors
700 gold 450 res elite warriors

C`Tis win 20 battles from 20... hmmmm... what is wrong... Ou! Bingo! HI usless against so-heavy-hitting & hi-def troops, but little Slave-Lizards kick them... It`s miracle my friends! (all Slave-Lizards die)

Not a win for Ctis. Ctis pays 1.5 times the gold and 1.75 times the ressources. The scales don't make up that big of a difference, Ctis only gets 14% more gold.

next, change 80 Slave Warriors to 20 Chariots
C`Tis win 20 battles from 20... and even some troops exept Sauromancers survive!

[/quote]
1000 gold, 520 res
A better trade in gold terms but worse in res. Still not good enough if they all die, and keep in mind that vanheres aren't as dangerous as MA vans or EA helhirdings anyway.

[Aseth]

I check my 1st test,I used 180 gold Comanders.
C`Tis capital have 191res with 3of5 neighbor provinces captured. Some problems gather 690res? Seems not to me...
C`Tis have not 14% advantage in money, but slightly more - because of admin & tax+patrol multipliers - it`s abaut 36% on first turn if Van patrol too...

tomorrow i`ll test 1rst era Hellheim,HERE will be problems without poison slingers...