Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?

Edi · #1 December 12th, 2006, 03:20 PM

Very well. I think I'll take a step back and concetrate on the DB project for a while. I'll make sure that this will not happen again.

Edi

tombom · #2 December 12th, 2006, 03:27 PM

It's important that you aim for some sort of balance in the standard game. Vanheim/Helheim are obviously overpowered and therefore should have some kind of nerf. I don't expect it ever to be perfectly balanced. If new people really want to have an easy nation to stomp all over the AI with, they can add a mod that does that. For someone that is new to the series and has never been a good game player, I found the Easy AI easy enough that I won my first game.

HoneyBadger · #3 December 12th, 2006, 03:49 PM

I think the trick to the Vans is not to give them a fight, just go around them and take out their principle provinces until you've destroyed their ability to make war. It also seems to me that a Death-Curse/amulet of vengeance strategy with some cheap sacreds would start to really irk the Vans, when you did have to fight them. Even if they win, they lose.

Edi · #4 December 12th, 2006, 04:09 PM

I'll echo HoneyBadger's words. I should also add that it does not seem at all fawning and that the point about the dev's approach is dead on target.

I would also like to extend an apology to NT Jedi and to the community at large for being party to fouling up this thread. I can get rather vocal at times and sometimes anger can cloud my judgment. This thread has been one of those instances when it got the better of me.

Edi

NickW · #5 December 12th, 2006, 04:13 PM

Quote:

HoneyBadger said:
I think the trick to the Vans is not to give them a fight, just go around them and take out their principle provinces until you've destroyed their ability to make war.

That's not a workable strategy. If you send your army to the front and they send the Van army to the front, then you go around them and attack the backfield, they will have another Van army building up in the capital that you must contend with. You'll still lose your army, just a few turns later plus you'll be losing all your home provinces from the original front line Van army as they take out your "principle" provinces and ability to make war.

thejeff · #6 December 12th, 2006, 04:43 PM

Yeah, a raiding strategy against Vanheim doesn't sound too workable.

They have the reputation as one of the best raiders in the game. They'll be better at it than most nations. Caelum might be able to make it work.

Add to that glamour, meaning you can't find their armies to avoid and you'll need to use significant force in your raiding parties to handle running into even a few blessed Van.

Gandalf Parker · #7 December 12th, 2006, 04:47 PM

Its definetly a workable strategy. What I see is that Vanheim/Helheim are not imbalanced. They ARE the balance. Against certain nations and certain strategies. This is a variation on other threads Ive seen about Ermor, or Ulm, or Jotunheim, etc etc.

Dominions does not balance nation to nation. It balances by rock-paper-scissors. So a nation is not imbalanced if its extremely difficult to beat on a certain map size with certain game settings when facing certain nations who are playing a certain way. (altho, the devs will certainly examine that and see if a tweak might improve one type of gameplay without affecting others)

Aseth · #8 December 12th, 2006, 05:11 PM

Quote:

Gandalf Parker said:
Its definetly a workable strategy. What I see is that Vanheim/Helheim are not imbalanced. They ARE the balance. Against certain nations and certain strategies. This is a variation on other threads Ive seen about Ermor, or Ulm, or Jotunheim, etc etc.

Dominions does not balance nation to nation. It balances by rock-paper-scissors. So a nation is not imbalanced if its extremely difficult to beat on a certain map size with certain game settings when facing certain nations who are playing a certain way. (altho, the devs will certainly examine that and see if a tweak might improve one type of gameplay without affecting others)

yep, that`s exactly what I mean, but can`t tell because of lack skills in English

NickW · #9 December 12th, 2006, 05:19 PM

Quote:

Gandalf Parker said:
Its definetly a workable strategy. What I see is that Vanheim/Helheim are not imbalanced. They ARE the balance. Against certain nations and certain strategies. This is a variation on other threads Ive seen about Ermor, or Ulm, or Jotunheim, etc etc.

I'm sorry, but are you doing any MP play at all? That statement seems to be completely unsupportable. Dual Blessed Van/Hel against anyone else in an MP game is going to go in favor of the Van/Hel sacreds assuming all else equal. Unless there is vastly unequal skill involved, or third party interference from another nation, the Vans/Hels are almost a lock to win.

Obviously there are a few counter strategies that work but they all revolve around being very specific nations and playing with very specific anti-Van strategies.

If the choice is between playing only a limited list of nations/strategies or losing, then the game is sadly broken.

I'd like to think I'm overlooking some obvious F9/W9 Van counter but I don't I am. Most nations simply can't beat the F9/W9 Vans without having a lot of research and being able to spend more significantly more resources defeating the Vans than the Vans themselves cost.

Quote:

Gandalf Parker said:
Dominions does not balance nation to nation. It balances by rock-paper-scissors. So a nation is not imbalanced if its extremely difficult to beat on a certain map size with certain game settings when facing certain nations who are playing a certain way. (altho, the devs will certainly examine that and see if a tweak might improve one type of gameplay without affecting others)

I'd generally agree with that statement, but the imbalances that do exist and have long existed are not severe ones. Some nations didn't match up well with others but that just meant having to use clever tactics or get allies or simply be bigger/richer before engaging X with Y.

The Van/Hel dual bless thing is a bit different. If you want to start charting out all the possible scenarios and all the possible situations Van/Hel can face the sad fact is they should win almost all of them, all else being equal in terms of player skill.

Graeme Dice · #10 December 12th, 2006, 05:40 PM

Quote:

NickW said:
I'm sorry, but are you doing any MP play at all? That statement seems to be completely unsupportable.

He doesn't and it is. Gandalf approaches every single post in this forum from the fanboy position that the game is perfect in whatever form the devs have currently built it and that any problems people have are problems with the people, not the game.